Rugbyfan564
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Bevan Rodd is out for the entire Six Nations.
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England 2023/24
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Hes going to want some experience in that backline somewhere....if Daly is fit and playing well for Sarries....he'll be there with Murley or another youngster on the other wing...
Yes we need to rebuild but you also need some old heads in there..especially with Mitchel at 9, possibly Marcus at 10, whoever At 12, Lawrence at 13 and even Steward is still young at 15...
Marler, Genge, Obano
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Your faith in Borthwick, ever misguided, is admirable
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If there must be an experienced head on the wing then I'd pick Watson over Daly every single day of the week.
So would i but when Is Watson ever fit? It's like Manu now. You just expect him to be unavailable.
Time to just forget about Watson and focus on the bext generation of wingers..and even Manu should only be a very short term option gonig forward....
Why is it misguided?
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Misguided in the sense that you are very certain Murley 'will be there' when the evidence we have so far suggests that Borthwick's picks are more likely to be the old guard.
I share some of your optimism that Borthwick's post RWC side and tactics will be less one-dimensional. However, that's definitely cautious optimism at best and probably better described as hope.
I share some of your optimism that Borthwick's post RWC side and tactics will be less one-dimensional. However, that's definitely cautious optimism at best and probably better described as hope.
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I'm not convinced that Borthwick is going to make any but enforced changes.
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I agree re. Watson. Even if he is fit, he rarely stays fit enough to build any form to speak of and at this point, he is definitely living off past glories.
He's 30 in a couple of months too and there's not a cat in hell's chance he's making the next RWC.
If we were short of promising wingers, there might be case to keep him, but that's one area we aren't struggling for supply.
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Me neither. As I said, mine is hope rather than any real conviction.
Still, the amount of 'enforced changes' is forcing the change that was needed in refreshing the squad. It may be more luck than judgement, but I won't care if it works out well!
Maybe, but I'm picking up what the club managers are saying...Dawson only the other day making it clear that Freeman was very much on SBs radar..and that he and Dowson had both stated the same areas of his game he needed to work on.
Murley a while ago was told to work on his kick chase etc...which he clearly is working on.
So It does give me optimism that he wants these lads involved but they have to be ready...
I still believe he had a plan for the world Cup...and they took this much vaunted "great " South African side to one point of a final without a even a basic attack.
He's made the breakdown amongst the best in the world already, he's working on the scrum and lineout and I have no doubt will begin the attack...
I've said I'll judge him at the 2024 AIs...and if I'm wrong then I'll be happy to admit I was wrong.
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Why the AIs? What about the 6n and summer?
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Has he?
I mean we have world class opensides who play very well, but crediting SB with that is a bit much - especially after he sandbagged Curry and only let him play his natural game when Underhill was back in the mix
I don't remember our breakdown looking anything special - didn't Fiji give us a hiding there?
Kick chase is the only thing that I think has noticeably improved under SB - and even that was just in one game,
It's disappointing to see our lineout such a mess (even when claiming our own throws it's messy/uncontrolled ball) considering Borthwick is a lineout specialist
Scrum's a mess but that's largely a personnel thing (though it is SB picking the persons)
Realistically he has an insane amount of work to do to gain the trust of any sane supporter after he binned Mercer in favour of Binny. That's unforgivable
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Sanderson said in his media thing this week that he's heard (though not officially) it's going to be a 50 man EPS with 25 on hybrid contracts
That changes things up quite a lot
That changes things up quite a lot
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The draw meant that anything less than the semi would have been failure. In that game the conditions were a great leveller but I was left with a sense of disappointment that we didn't make the final after largely looking fairly comfortable. After making the right call in picking Cole and Marler he made the wrong call in taking them off while they were still able to draw breath and we know what happened next.
At the breakdown I think the stats showed that we had one of the slowest attacking ruck speeds out of anyone although you could argue that it didn't matter as all we were going to do was kick anyway.
Line out wasn't great and it really should have been with Lawes who's a great option and an established club duo in George and Itoje. Lawes will be a difficult act to follow in a lot of ways.
The squad / team will see a lot of changes as we've already discussed. I've never thought Borthwick's the right man for the job, but I agree with you that it's reasonable to give him until the year end before making a strong judgement although you'd really hope to see something cohesive emerging during the 6N.
Martin and Chessum in the row for Tigers this weekend. A glimpse of England future?
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I'm not too dissimilar. I'm willing to give him a bit of time, but he's almost a full year into the job now and we need to start seeing something more than a game plan that is effective but horrible to watch. If that's not in place by the end of the 6 Nations, I think the criticism will be entirely fair.
In many respects, the amount of turnover in the squad is doing him a big favour, but I do have some concerns that it provides a bit of a convenient excuse. The season immediately after a RWC is almost always a bit of a changing of the guard anyway. It might be a bit more extreme for us, but that's because we stuck with the old guard for one last mission. France, Scotland and Italy won't change that much, but Ireland and Wales will be different in some key areas.
The bit where I differ to @Vieux Talonneur is that I did feel Borthwick was the best man for the job. I'm not sure I do now, but he may come good. The jouer in me wanted Robertson but I never truly thought we'd go for him and I thought Borthwick was well placed to address a lot of the areas that need improving. So far I'm underwhelmed, but if the changes he makes are good ones and we see an improved game plan in the Six Nations, I'll be a bit happier.
As @Geordie mentioned, he does seem to have a decent dialogue with the clubs. As well as Dowson and Sanderson, I've seen similar comments from van Graan re. Barbeary and Cokanasiga so that is a positive signal at least.
In many respects, the amount of turnover in the squad is doing him a big favour, but I do have some concerns that it provides a bit of a convenient excuse. The season immediately after a RWC is almost always a bit of a changing of the guard anyway. It might be a bit more extreme for us, but that's because we stuck with the old guard for one last mission. France, Scotland and Italy won't change that much, but Ireland and Wales will be different in some key areas.
The bit where I differ to @Vieux Talonneur is that I did feel Borthwick was the best man for the job. I'm not sure I do now, but he may come good. The jouer in me wanted Robertson but I never truly thought we'd go for him and I thought Borthwick was well placed to address a lot of the areas that need improving. So far I'm underwhelmed, but if the changes he makes are good ones and we see an improved game plan in the Six Nations, I'll be a bit happier.
As @Geordie mentioned, he does seem to have a decent dialogue with the clubs. As well as Dowson and Sanderson, I've seen similar comments from van Graan re. Barbeary and Cokanasiga so that is a positive signal at least.
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I don't buy it at all. For the WC Borthwick had the players longer than he is ever going to get them and did nothing with the attack. The statement, 'we were working on the basics' doesn't hold up. What were the backs doing when the forwards were practising their line outs and scrums which overall didn't do that well.
I think Borthwick seems like a smart guy and hopefully he'll learn but we are going to get old, slow players with an out of date gameplan. I don't see any evidence to the contrary. Tigers played like that under him, England had the most time ever with the players and didn't do anything other than kick.
What's suddenly changed now? He's got a lot less time with the players and people are expecting him to change his attack?
Hope I'm wrong.
I think Borthwick seems like a smart guy and hopefully he'll learn but we are going to get old, slow players with an out of date gameplan. I don't see any evidence to the contrary. Tigers played like that under him, England had the most time ever with the players and didn't do anything other than kick.
What's suddenly changed now? He's got a lot less time with the players and people are expecting him to change his attack?
Hope I'm wrong.
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This. The big issue as well is he said we were focusing on the basics. Our basics were dogshit. I've watched teams execute basic gameplans which were a bit dull but you could see the focus was on high accuracy. I may be a bit of a rebel here but I think the backs still have a role to play in a basic gameplan but we didn't seem to have any idea at all what to do with the backs. Our gameplan was 1 out passing to forwards, kick. That's it. An English side playing a basic gameplan with accuracy does not lose and then nearly lose again to PI nations.
I'll give Borthwick the benefit of the doubt for this 6N alone. English clubs are currently performing well in Europe, we have multiple players who have been finding form again. If he takes these teams and players who seem to have got back in the rhythm of things and gets them playing dogshit again then the blame must be laid entirely at his feet. No more excuses.
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