New Zealand vs England 2nd Test (13/07/24)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Absolutely...I think it's a mix of both...I just don't get why we can't produce actual 12s....(ill avoid the Farrell debate)

I mean on the other thread about Ireland blocking foreign props it's shows that of the 20 12's (first and second choice)
13 are English products

 

[LIONSxv]

I thought overall the teams are at similar levels 1-1 would of been about right

Aside from ability, tactics and fitness where England have struggled in the last decade is selection and the ability to get refs inside.

i thought the latter might improve after Farrells departure to France. Replacing an abrasive style for George's more gentle, diplomatic manner.

If you look at the very best teams the rub of the green with refs is a huge part of their Armoury. Their is no chance England continually slow the ruck by lying on the wrong side of the ruck like NZ did today without conceding half a dozen pens

 

[BPM]

True. However, I do think our rapport with the refs has gone from actively bad (with Farrell) to decent with Lawes and George.

 

[Grizwald]

Another job for Borthwick is to start to build depth in key positions that can fit into a system/style of play. Furbank pulling up injured mid week wasn't great preparation. Carpenter would have been far more like for like but no experience. I think a switch of Smith's would be worth looking at. Marcus has had a good tour but I'm not sure Finn has the sort of game that suits coming off the bench, while MS will always bring some impact if chasing a game.

On the props probably got to look towards the U20's for what's coming through for the long term. I thought Will Collier was a bit younger than he is at 33 and now ineligible anyhow. I'd hoped Ehren Painter may kick on, he's got the size and not yet in prime age range for a prop.

 

[BPM]

I'm hanging on to the fact that most props peak later in their careers than any other position.

I have high hopes for Harper if he can stay fit. I also hope Street can get ahead of Painter and Iosefa-Scott at Exeter (or leave) as he's the type of technically sound tighthead we need. I'm not sure about Heyes, but willing to be convinced.

I think it's way too early to be raiding the U20s. If Sela or Fasogbon get a similarly sensible ramp up to Baxter, they're at least 2yrs off.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Gonna be interesting to see how Fasogbon gets on - not really seen anything of him since last year, even before his injury Gloucester didn't use him in the prem cup

He's absolutely massive so if he's got the technique to back that up he could be very good

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Cole plays until others are as good as him. Quite simple really. This is international rugby, not a kindergarten.

That said we knew NZ would target our scrum so it was an odd decision not to start Cole who's presumably seen as our best scrummager.

Wonder if SB missed a trick though. We saw last week that the NZ line out was poor. We see time and again how a malfunctioning set piece has a disproportionate effect, so maybe we should really have gone flat out to destroy that - only Itoje is really an offensive line out operator with CCS and Martin pretty much own ball merchants. Putting in Isiekwe and / or Coles would have given us more height, athleticism and attacking threat. And if that cost a few KG in the scrum, well it's a team effort but not really going to make that much odds if your props are struggling.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isiekwe at 6, CCS at 8 and Earl on the bench would've made hay this game

 

[Geordie]

I mean on the other thread about Ireland blocking foreign props it's shows that of the 20 12's (first and second choice)
13 are English products

Is that in the prem? The issue is they're not pushing for England recognition though...Farrell was there for so long for that very reason and now we have Lawrence a 13 in the prem playing there.

 

[Rinkadink]

Is that in the prem? The issue is they're not pushing for England recognition though...Farrell was there for so long for that very reason and now we have Lawrence a 13 in the prem playing there.

I'm not sure that Farrell was there because the likes of Devoto were not up to an accepted standard. Maybe we should compile a list of current regular 12s that are England qualified (or soon to be) at each premiership club;

Bristol - James Williams and Bernard Janse van Rensburg.

 

[Booboobang]

I don't think Steward is Test match quality which is odd as he started his international career really well. I think he's been found out now though. He's a distant second choice behind Furbank.

I mean, he was a bright light amongst a sea of turd, possible people overrated him when the things he struggles with were evident even then. Elite under a high ball, but anything involving movement is a no, his playmaking is nowhere near international standard. Teams now know dont kick at him just run past or around him.

The system doesnt help, his limitations are magnified massively in a rush defednse where he has to be the covering man.

I could see him becoming a good 12 if he converted fulltime, otherwise if england are running this style it is probably better to find a backup more suited.

 

[Booboobang]

Like I can see Eddie's issues with Lawrence at times.

100% agree. The talent is exceptional, but inconsistency at this level and I cannot abide the lazziness in defense, if you are having an off day going forward you need to atleast try and make up for it on the other side.

 

[Geordie]

I'm not sure that Farrell was there because the likes of Devoto were not up to an accepted standard. Maybe we should compile a list of current regular 12s that are England qualified (or soon to be) at each premiership club;

Bristol - James Williams and Bernard Janse van Rensburg.

Many dislike Farrell but he was an excellent 12 for England...but not necessarily a great 12 compared to other team 12s.
The fact that no other English 12 could really compete with him for that spot is the issue. Many had fleeting bouts of form but not consistently long term...

Look at Dan Kelly for example.

I hope Ollie Hartley recovers well from his bad knee injury as he could be one to watch...

 

[Booboobang]

Think some of the young tight heads should just be thrown in at the deep end and given the experience. Will Stuart just doesn't have a point of difference struggles to hold up the scrum, and not great around the park. General move away from strong scrummagers in favour of more mobile props that offer more around the park has cost England and will take time for the pendulum to swing the other way.

Earl had one of his poorer games tonight. He carried well but got the wrong side of the ref at the breakdown and conceeded at least 3 pens there I could remember.

This is the problem though right? If those young guys arent consistently dominating stuart at club level they arent ready to be broken by international ball. We have some elite prospects and it is better to let them develop. Stuart is a good prem player not international class, but still a stand out at prem level which is worrying.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm not sure that Farrell was there because the likes of Devoto were not up to an accepted standard. Maybe we should compile a list of current regular 12s that are England qualified (or soon to be) at each premiership club;

Bristol - James Williams and Bernard Janse van Rensburg.

BJVR has 2 years to go though?

 

[Which Tyler]

BJVR has 2 years to go though?

I thought we'd taken over the Irish thread for this discussion?

 

[Nudger]

I think a fit Genge and Chessum help with the scrum.

Baxter did very well across both test given how inexperienced he is. He should cement his place as Genge's back up.

Coles > Chessum at club level. Chessum > Coles at test level.

We just need to move on from Cole at tighthead. Unless he's starting, he shouldn't be in the 23. He just isn't an impact player.

Ye,I thought we missed obano aswell

 

[BPM]

Maybe. Although in the grand scheme of things, I think blooding Baxter will end up being a lot more beneficial than Obano getting a couple more caps. This was his chance to establish himself as 3rd, possibly even 2nd choice loosehead, but now I feel like he will probably be leapfrogged by Baxter.

I like Rodd and I think he's a smart rugby player, but his scrummaging just isn't there yet. If AOF gets moved to loosehead at club level, it'll be interesting to see which of them is preferred.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Obano will be 33 next rugby World Cup, SA props where all 30-34
England fans get way too focus on youth at times I feel.
I don't see Sale moving AOF especially with AOF saying he prefers TH

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

In all honesty I'm not writing Sinckler off for the next world cup either.
He seems to acknowledge his issues at least, if he can return to form in a couple years I see him coming back to the league and making the squad.

Generally speaking the last 4 rugby world cups winning squads only 2 props have been under the age of 27
Thomas du toit (24) (Injury call up in 2019)
Owen Franks (23) (2011)

Also interesting only 5 props have had over 50 caps
2023 - Nyakane (62), Malherbe (63)
2019 - Mtawarira (111)
2015 - Franks(77)
2011 - Woodcock (81)