New Zealand vs England 2nd Test (13/07/24)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Think some of the young tight heads should just be thrown in at the deep end and given the experience. Will Stuart just doesn't have a point of difference struggles to hold up the scrum, and not great around the park. General move away from strong scrummagers in favour of more mobile props that offer more around the park has cost England and will take time for the pendulum to swing the other way.

Earl had one of his poorer games tonight. He carried well but got the wrong side of the ref at the breakdown and conceeded at least 3 pens there I could remember.

Honestly how many young tighthead do we have starting in the league?

 

[Which Tyler]

Think some of the young tight heads should just be thrown in at the deep end and given the experience.

Please let them grow adult bones before asking them to put the best part of 2 tonnes through their spines

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...

www.therugbyforum.com

 

[BPM]

Disagree completely, until a genuine alternative comes about we should run him into the ground
Look how bad Stuart's been, should he really be out clear first choice?

I don't understand the criticism Stuart gets. His scrummaging isn't brilliant, but I also don't think it's outright bad. I think de Groot got a lot of change out of scrummaging illegally, particularly in the first test (no way he was driving straight) which made it look worse. Other refs might have taken a different view to Nika.

Stuart is busy around the park with clear outs and usually has a decent tackle count. He's no more than OK, but he's the best we have right now.

I'm hoping Harper kicks on but until then, I think there is a bigger upside to blooding Heyes than persisting with Cole.

 

[Reiser99]

Disagree completely, until a genuine alternative comes about we should run him into the ground
Look how bad Stuart's been, should he really be out clear first choice?

And if we get to 2027 and he's still playing? I get the point and for the moment it's not an issue. I also get that if no player steps up then forcing it becomes an issue. However, this is a big long term problem at the moment and England/Premiership need to address it because if Cole is still one of the top 2 players in 2027 we ain't winning.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And if we get to 2027 and he's still playing? I get the point and for the moment it's not an issue. I also get that if no player steps up then forcing it becomes an issue. However, this is a big long term problem at the moment and England/Premiership need to address it because if Cole is still one of the top 2 players in 2027 we ain't winning.

Agree with that but bin Stuart before Cole, how many failed chances do we have to give him?
It's not like we're seeing gradual improvements like when we kept giving Genge chances when his scrummaging wasn't good enough

 

[BPM]

I hate saying we should do a Scotland, but Tyrone Green slots into that Furbank role like a dream

I disagree. I am a big fan of Green, but it's a flat no from me.

Aside from the fact that I don't want to go down the poaching route, Green is not a playmaker. He runs the ball back from deep almost every time. While that might work at club level, he lacks the tactical nous to be a good test 15 IMO.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Maybe its a defensive decision. 13 is one of the hardest positions to defend....particularly at this level...is Lawrences defence good enough to be the defensive leader (which 13 generally is)

Just wonder if that's a reason they see him more of a 12 at this level. I maybe well off the mark of course as I haven't focused hugely on that part of his game.

I think its just that England haven't got many candidates to play 12 so somebody has to play there out of position.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

And if we get to 2027 and he's still playing? I get the point and for the moment it's not an issue. I also get that if no player steps up then forcing it becomes an issue. However, this is a big long term problem at the moment and England/Premiership need to address it because if Cole is still one of the top 2 players in 2027 we ain't winning.

Kinda out of Englands hands if no prop is performing better than a 41 year old cole how can anyone fix it?


We would literally need to do a Scotland and sign some SA props
A nice start would be if England stopped trying to turn AOF into a loosehead

 

[BPM]

Agree with that but bin Stuart before Cole, how many failed chances do we have to give him?
It's not like we're seeing gradual improvements like when we kept giving Genge chances when his scrummaging wasn't good enough

What has he 'failed' at? He mostly does his job. Yes, he's prone to being exposed at scrum time, but I doubt it would be any different with any other tighthead available to us.

When was the last time Cole really dominated? If all he's doing is holding his own, there's not really a justification for keeping him involved.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If all he's doing is holding his own, there's not really a justification for keeping him involved.

But when the alternatives aren't doing that surely you'd want someone who can at least hold their own?

 

[BPM]

So put Heyes or Harper in and see if they can.

Flogging Cole to death isn't helping the situation.

For a long time, I think Genge got more leeway because of his carrying, not because he was actually improving his scrummaging.

I'm not a massive fan of Stuart, I just don't think there is a better alternative right now.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Genge was a top 2 Loosehead in the league despite being young though.
And he was massively dominate for Leicester in the scrum

 

[BPM]

Mmm not sure he was early on.

 

[West Country Wail]

Think some of the young tight heads should just be thrown in at the deep end and given the experience. Will Stuart just doesn't have a point of difference struggles to hold up the scrum, and not great around the park. General move away from strong scrummagers in favour of more mobile props that offer more around the park has cost England and will take time for the pendulum to swing the other way.

Earl had one of his poorer games tonight. He carried well but got the wrong side of the ref at the breakdown and conceeded at least 3 pens there I could remember.

He looked completely knackered. Surprised (again) that he wasn't taken off.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mmm not sure he was early on.

I mean he wasn't an England regular until 2018. But even before then the scrum was the only good thing tigers had going for it

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Honestly come to think of it how many world class props are in the league atm?
Not even English ones? Just in general

The quality of props seems to have dropped massively all round

 

[Which Tyler]

And if we get to 2027 and he's still playing?

If he's still the best THP available to England, then he should still be being selected.

Honestly come to think of it how many world class props are in the league atm?

TdT is probably the closest we've got - SA's 3rd/4th choice

 

[Rinkadink]

Is Green a second playmaker?

Not really but Malins certainly is a second playmaker.

Dan Cole should not have been involved with England for years. Nice guy, done a great service but well past it and younger props should be given the experience. They don't have to be worldies either but able to do a job and never know what may come of it. Worst case is they're "fillers" until others are ready.

 

[Geordie]

I think its just that England haven't got many candidates to play 12 so somebody has to play there out of position.

Absolutely...I think it's a mix of both...I just don't get why we can't produce actual 12s....(ill avoid the Farrell debate)

 

[Geordie]

Honestly come to think of it how many world class props are in the league atm?
Not even English ones? Just in general

The quality of props seems to have dropped massively all round

Baxter was right...