England 2024/25

[Rugbyfan564]

The England lock George Martin is likely to miss the rest of the season as he struggles with injury, casting doubt over whether he will make the British & Irish Lions tour to Australia. (The Times)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Don't disagree, but we shouldn't be looking at him to cover lock in the first place.

Yeah I agree, he should never have been looked at as a lock

BUT Borthwick seems to think otherwise, and if Borthwick is genuinely planning on him as a lock option on the bench (Even if it's more a chessum 6 cover) then IMO he needs to start a few test games at lock and Argentina is a great test for him.

If it works then it would suddenly make the bench options look so much better, if not then hopefully puts to bed any talk of him as a lock even as cover.

But either CCS or Hill needs to start a test at lock to be considered for a bench option going forward.

4. Martin
5. Itoje
6. Chessum
7. Curry
8. Willis

19. Hill/CCS, 20. Earl/CCS, 21. Pollock, 22. JVP, 23. M.Smith

Pollock is prob the first forward we have had that could make the 6/2 split work going forward, he's similar to Kwagga Smith in terms of speed and explosiveness.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah I agree, he should never have been looked at as a lock

BUT Borthwick seems to think otherwise, and if Borthwick is genuinely planning on him as a lock option on the bench (Even if it's more a chessum 6 cover) then IMO he needs to start a few test games at lock and Argentina is a great test for him.

If it works then it would suddenly make the bench options look so much better, if not then hopefully puts to bed any talk of him as a lock even as cover.

But either CCS or Hill needs to start a test at lock to be considered for a bench option going forward.

4. Martin
5. Itoje
6. Chessum
7. Curry
8. Willis

19. Hill/CCS, 20. Earl/CCS, 21. Pollock, 22. JVP, 23. M.Smith

Pollock is prob the first forward we have had that could make the 6/2 split work going forward, he's similar to Kwagga Smith in terms of speed and explosiveness.

I think we're violently agreeing but the way Hill was(n't) used in the 6N suggests it was more spur of the moment / opportunistic than a long term strategy.

Chessum and Itoje played 79.5 mins v Sco and 80 v Fra when he was on the bench. He wasn't involved in the other 3 games.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Maybe they'll play CCS at lock - he did, what, 60? 70mins? vs Wales, and then started there for Quins

I don't like it but I could see them going for it off the bench, especially as it'd ease the logjam in the backrow

Isiekwe has 16 caps with an average of 23 mins, though that's dragged up quite a lot by the few starts he had in 2021,
I'm still a big fan but can concede that there's obviously something they're not that keen on and he's never going to be a major player for England.
That said I could see him touring this summer as he's a very good lineout operator (especially defensively) and we'll be missing Itoje
I'd feel a lot better about an Isiekwe/Coles pairing than throwing in Tizard or Lockett

J.Hill could tour for similar reasons, and fair play he's playing well atm, but rumours are he's off to France next season so even though he'd technically be available I don't think they'd take him if that's announced

I don't want to see CCS at lock. I think he offers something which most of England's back rowers (apart from Willis) dont have - a big ball carrying threat.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I don't want to see CCS at lock. I think he offers something which most of England's back rowers (apart from Willis) dont have - a big ball carrying threat.

I don't particularly want to see CCS at lock either, but can this exact argument not kinda be used to argue why he should play lock, given that our locks don't tend be great carriers either?

"I think he offers something which most of England's back rowers locks (apart from Willis Martin) don't have - a big ball carry thing threat."

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

CCS has 8 written all over him. Not really tall enough for a lock, not consistently busy enough for a flanker, at least if you judge by T Curry standards. But he's a round peg for 8.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

at least if you judge by T Curry standards.

Think if you judge by most standards,
Main criticism of him is how much he fades in/out of games - hopefully just something that gets coached out of him

 

[McTallshort]

Don't want CCS at lock either. He's not remotely good enough at the scrum. Martin is the closest thing we have to Kruis in terms of a set piece lock. CCS is wasted at 2nd row because he can't do what Martin and Itoje do so why put him there sapping all his energy in the scrum? It's like when they put Tom Croft in the 2nd row, absolute waste

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Think if you judge by most standards,
Main criticism of him is how much he fades in/out of games - hopefully just something that gets coached out of him

Yep. But think you can get away more with that a bit at 8….provided you're impactful when you are involved, which he is.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Don't want CCS at lock either. He's not remotely good enough at the scrum.

Not that I want him at lock, but how on earth would you know this? England's scrum was ok when he was at lock from memory and that is literally the only evidence we have?

It would also suggest that he would get better as he trained there, so that Wales game would be the low watermark.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think all the talk of CCS and T Hill in the row came about due to the specific circumstances of this 6N. Injuries, Coles seemingly being out of nick etc.

Would be surprised if either ever showed up there again except in emergencies like 2 locks going down in the same match.

 

[McTallshort]

Not that I want him at lock, but how on earth would you know this? England's scrum was ok when he was at lock from memory and that is literally the only evidence we have?

It would also suggest that he would get better as he trained there, so that Wales game would be the low watermark.

Who were they playing against when he was lock and why isn't he already a lock?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Who were they playing against when he was lock and why isn't he already a lock?

What do you mean?

You specifically called out his scrummaging ability, but I'm not sure what that's based on?

 

[McTallshort]

What do you mean?

You specifically called out his scrummaging ability, but I'm not sure what that's based on?

It's based on he's a flanker (unless I'm wrong). People think the two positions are interchangeable but they aren't. They require a different body mass etc. I also think you missed the last part of what I said which was that CCS would be wasted at lock for the same reason