England 2023/24

[BPM]

From what I read, he has essentially 'left' which suggests England aren't making him work the notice. Which leaves the options @TRF_Olyy has already outlined:

Yeah put him on gardening leave or allow him to join a club level side

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I do find it a little strange that everyone on social media (including journos) is acting like he invented the blitz defence - obviously he'll have his own take on it and that's what's been implemented, but tons of clubs and countries have managed to successfully run that defensive style without him at the helm

 

[Crash Hamster]

Once is happenstance, twice is co-incidence and the third time is enemy action.

It's all remarkably suspicious; the chance to coach for a 'sleeping giant' nation (and be well paid to boot) must be very appealing... so why the resignations and reorganisations of roles? People don't leave jobs, they leave managers and Occam's Razor suggests that it's probably Borthwick...

 

[Lé Ddanno]

This all sounds depressingly logical

Yep, utterly out of his depth

 

[HamJan]

Waters and Jones leaving at roughly the same time suggests to me that the RFU, rather than Borthwick, are the main reason for the departures. Maybe it was a matter of finances or T&Cs not being honoured, but Waters and SB were together at Leicester so each one knew the other on a daily basis and Waters would have given Jones a fairly deep insight into SB's working practices. To me it looked like SB was giving his coaches a free rein after the Scotland 6N game and this appeared to carry on over the NZ tour.

They'll both be sorely missed as I really had hope for the next RWC cycle, but it surprised me to learn that Tom Tomblson had already left (apologies if this has already been raised elsewhere). Can't help feeling that this isn't down to Borthwick.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If it was finances it would be reported as that

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In more you couldn't make it up news……Times this morning saying the SB is allowed to hand out 25 central contracts…..although it is understood that the RFU can't afford that many.

There were apparently some family reasons with Walters, but his was first and foremost a career move. Jones just seems to have been disaffected.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I see Itoje has been named Sarries captain - imagine he'll take over from JG for England before long

There were apparently some family reasons with Walters

The classic get out of jail free card when a better offer comes along

 

[Amiga500]

Jones just seems to have been disaffected.

Maybe he was home in Ireland for Sunday dinner, and when putting together the starter, his mammy accidently said "Felix takes the soup"...

He'd little choice then really.

 

[Amiga500]

Times this morning saying the SB is allowed to hand out 25 central contracts

Would a central contract comprise all or the majority of a player's wages?

Dunno how well that will work in England where all the teams are private enterprises and in company terms completely separate from the RFU.

Could nearly smell the legal challenges from here "your paying X of yer man's salary but only Y of our man"...

 

[Scotty]

Waters and Jones leaving at roughly the same time suggests to me that the RFU, rather than Borthwick, are the main reason for the departures. Maybe it was a matter of finances or T&Cs not being honoured, but Waters and SB were together at Leicester so each one knew the other on a daily basis and Waters would have given Jones a fairly deep insight into SB's working practices. To me it looked like SB was giving his coaches a free rein after the Scotland 6N game and this appeared to carry on over the NZ tour.

They'll both be sorely missed as I really had hope for the next RWC cycle, but it surprised me to learn that Tom Tomblson had already left (apologies if this has already been raised elsewhere). Can't help feeling that this isn't down to Borthwick.

My thought was the RFU tbh, I imagine there is so much red tape and politics behind the scenes.

As said Walters worked for a year under Borthwick and chose to follow him so I doubt he would have if he was so hard to work for, same for wiggs and Sinfield and as said Walters would have given him the story on Borthwick, you never know it could have been Borthwick but I have the same thought as you.

Spoke to Felix today. If his version is accurate then I think for England it will get worst before it gets better. Has nothing lined up either. He reckons Sinfield is replacing him also. But was very unhappy with a few things and effectively Borthwick "sold him a Ferrari but gave him an Astra" was his words

'"sold him a Ferrari but gave him an Astra" was his words'

Does that mean Borthwick was the problem or omitted details and challenges to the role under the RFU?

 

[Smurfy]

My thought was the RFU tbh, I imagine there is so much red tape and politics behind the scenes.

As said Walters worked for a year under Borthwick and chose to follow him so I doubt he would have if he was so hard to work for, same for wiggs and Sinfield and as said Walters would have given him the story on Borthwick, you never know it could have been Borthwick but I have the same thought as you.

'"sold him a Ferrari but gave him an Astra" was his words'

Does that mean Borthwick was the problem or omitted details and challenges to the role under the RFU?

Reading between the lines it sounds like he was promised the attacking role but was shunted to defence when Sinfield left, and with Sinfield back (apparently) he's now been shunted out of that to a fairly vague Assistant Coach role. Jones doesn't strike me as someone who is given to impulsiveness or histrionics so the manner of his leaving should be a cause for huge concern.

 

[HamJan]

If it was finances it would be reported as that

Not necessarily. There's many jumping to the conclusion that Borthwick's the problem, and I'm not saying they're wrong, but after the revival in fortunes this year SB seemed more chilled than I've ever seen him in interviews which makes me think that he was happy with the set up.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What would financial problems even be?
Not getting a pay rise after 8 games? Cancelling his Adobe Creative Suite license so he can't make analysis videos?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Would a central contract comprise all or the majority of a player's wages?

Dunno how well that will work in England where all the teams are private enterprises and in company terms completely separate from the RFU.

Could nearly smell the legal challenges from here "your paying X of yer man's salary but only Y of our man"...

£160K so presumably a minority for the more established players.

 

[Noonz]

Shaun Edwards is the man to fill England’s coaching void after Felix Jones’ exit | Gerard Meagher

Steve Borthwick’s team is in chaos and the RFU should prioritise recruiting the rugby league legend whatever the cost

www.theguardian.com

Pipe dream?

 

[HamJan]

What would financial problems even be?
Not getting a pay rise after 8 games? Cancelling his Adobe Creative Suite license so he can't make analysis videos?

Could be anything from a dispute over any performance related payments to non payment of agreed expenses or what Jones sees as the RFU reneging on any matter concerning his terms and conditions.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Shaun Edwards is the man to fill England’s coaching void after Felix Jones’ exit | Gerard Meagher

Steve Borthwick’s team is in chaos and the RFU should prioritise recruiting the rugby league legend whatever the cost

www.theguardian.com

Pipe dream?

Sounds like a filler piece rather than anything in it

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not necessarily. There's many jumping to the conclusion that Borthwick's the problem, and I'm not saying they're wrong, but after the revival in fortunes this year SB seemed more chilled than I've ever seen him in interviews which makes me think that he was happy with the set up.

Doubt it jumping to conclusions someone leaked it to the press and they prob leaked the reason which was reported

If it was RFU related someone from Borthwick camp would've leaked that it was

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Shaun Edwards is the man to fill England’s coaching void after Felix Jones’ exit | Gerard Meagher

Steve Borthwick’s team is in chaos and the RFU should prioritise recruiting the rugby league legend whatever the cost

www.theguardian.com

Pipe dream?

Even if he was linked to an England position, I have absolutely zero belief now that we will retain any coaching staff we hire.

Something is seriously ****** up in English rugby, no other side in the world has the churn of assistant coaches we've had. Yes I know a chunk have gone on to club coaching roles etc but that also doesn't happen elsewhere to the same degree.