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England 2023/24

As long as they are happy to keep away from Sam Vesty. I'm happy with the coaching strategy.
 
Scotty said:
My thought was the RFU tbh, I imagine there is so much red tape and politics behind the scenes.

As said Walters worked for a year under Borthwick and chose to follow him so I doubt he would have if he was so hard to work for, same for wiggs and Sinfield and as said Walters would have given him the story on Borthwick, you never know it could have been Borthwick but I have the same thought as you.

'"sold him a Ferrari but gave him an Astra" was his words'

Does that mean Borthwick was the problem or omitted details and challenges to the role under the RFU?
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Not sure was it Borthwick or the just the overall plan.
On Aled Walters. (Another very dear friend) from working closely with him in Munster to what he has went on to achieve. He is a Welsh man BUT his roots are here in Munster. His home is here, his inlaws are all based here and family are at a stage of settling.
Think his decision was 100% with family in mind.
 
munstermuffin said:
Not sure was it Borthwick or the just the overall plan.
On Aled Walters. (Another very dear friend) from working closely with him in Munster to what he has went on to achieve. He is a Welsh man BUT his roots are here in Munster. His home is here, his inlaws are all based here and family are at a stage of settling.
Think his decision was 100% with family in mind.
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Family in mind sure but to push to actually leave the contract says something has to be off within England as he didn't head back from Tigers and he was well respected in England, he's made the best decision for him but to head for the door there is a high chance that something must have been pushing him towards it.

I just can't get my head around what, when coaches left under EJ we thought it was EJ and now it's the same under SB it must go deeper than just SB.

And the whole thing with Sinfield... it looks really bad for the RFU and SB.

I wish Walters and Jones all the best and hope they have great careers but it's gutting to see them leave especially without knowing why.
 
munstermuffin said:
On Aled Walters. (Another very dear friend) from working closely with him in Munster to what he has went on to achieve. He is a Welsh man BUT his roots are here in Munster. His home is here, his inlaws are all based here and family are at a stage of settling.
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Which was presumably all true when he took the England job? Which was always likely to be based in England.

Not blaming the guy if Ireland has that pull for him. But if so you have to ask whether the RFU did proper DD during the recruitment process and if Walters himself was fully transparent. Or if the RFU knowingly chose to run a risk which would have been compounded by a series of relatively short stays (Munster excepted).

On Jones. There was an initial lack of clarity about what his role was actually going to be. He ended up as defensive coach, but I read in the Times that he thought he was coming in as attack coach. If true you can understand why he was hacked off from the start.
 
Scotty said:
I just can't get my head around what, when coaches left under EJ we thought it was EJ and now it's the same under SB it must go deeper than just SB.
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I mean who knows, we will find out eventually I am sure, but remember where SB learned the coaching ropes, he is of the eddie jones tree, he has spent the majority of his whole coaching career working under eddie jones. It really isnt a stretch to imagine he picked up a lot of what being a HC is from the man himself.

Steve might of been happy with the set up but that doesnt mean the guys working under him where, also for walters working under him at tigers, maybe the way steve threw sinfield under the bus basically immediately at the sign of trouble made him feel a certain way, or borthwick worked differntly with the stress of international coaching, we dont know.

Basically, who actually knows, but there are enough alarm bells there to worry that hiring eddie jones guy might lead to continued eddie jones problems. Will wait and see who replaces those who have left and how we perform going forward.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Which was presumably all true when he took the England job? Which was always likely to be based in England.

Not blaming the guy if Ireland has that pull for him. But if so you have to ask whether the RFU did proper DD during the recruitment process and if Walters himself was fully transparent. Or if the RFU knowingly chose to run a risk which would have been compounded by a series of relatively short stays (Munster excepted).
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Presumably because the idea of the role he has in ireland now was not open and was never offered at any time in the past? so was never a consideration? IRFU just has a change of management and poaching him was one of their first moves. Not predictable, cant really blame the RFU for not forethinking about a previously non existant role or opportunity, or walters for being not transparent about an opportunity that wasnt on the table or looking to be on the table.
 
Been thinking about it, I think the Jones thing is actually down to being moved around roles far to much, from promised attack, to working defence, to being moved to general. All in 6 months, very unstable, very being sold a pup, understandable.

Not being allowed to consistently work on a phase and implement you ideas.

That is on borthwick if the case, but not terminal, hopefully he learns from all of this and lets his coaches work within their roles without chopping and changing.
 
Booboobang said:
Been thinking about it, I think the Jones thing is actually down to being moved around roles far to much, from promised attack, to working defence, to being moved to general. All in 6 months, very unstable, very being sold a pup, understandable.

Not being allowed to consistently work on a phase and implement you ideas.

That is on borthwick if the case, but not terminal, hopefully he learns from all of this and lets his coaches work within their roles without chopping and changing.
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England not chopping and changing? I think we'll see the pope saying"all hail great satan" before that happens.
 
Of all the positions we don't need to be capping foreign players back row is up there

He is yet to have contact with Borthwick but has ruled out a South Africa call-up
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Lol, I am also ruling myself out of a South Africa call up
Whole loada nothing - presumably his agent sorted the interview to get him on England's radar
 
Not really sure England could do much with Walters. Hes got such a link with Ireland, and if they have been in touch...well hes not going to turn that down...it is what it is. Hes clearly well liked...but Globally there are a lot of talented S&C Leads and S&C Coaches with the skills, energy and forward thinking who can come in. Im not worried about that scenario.

Jones is different, in that he has massive experience. There are some very good defence coaches out there globally but none will have Jones's experience. So this will be a big one to overcome. If Sinfield does take up that role again, is he able to continue to develop that defence? Hes clearly as popular as Jones with the players (due to his current mentoring role)...

If not its someone from outside. But just looking at the likes of Lee Radfords effect on Saints (just a quick example) shows there are very good young coaches out there...just need to get the right ones in with experience (and thats the difficult part)

I would like to know what the issue was with Jones though...was it the fact he's Defence coach and actually wanted to be Attack coach.

Edit: I notice SB has been given the vote of confidence...so sacked next week...
 
Tbh, while I get that Walters may have family in Ireland, I think it would be pretty poor of him to leave just for that. He's signed a contract and agreed to a job. Maybe if his family was in Australia, NZ or SA then it would be more acceptable, but his family is in Ireland. It's not that far and he knew that when he took the job. For me if it was purely for family then it's pretty unprofessional. If it's just an excuse to get out of a **** show behind then scenes then that's different.
 
Reiser99 said:
Tbh, while I get that Walters may have family in Ireland, I think it would be pretty poor of him to leave just for that. He's signed a contract and agreed to a job. Maybe if his family was in Australia, NZ or SA then it would be more acceptable, but his family is in Ireland. It's not that far and he knew that when he took the job. For me if it was purely for family then it's pretty unprofessional. If it's just an excuse to get out of a **** show behind then scenes then that's different.
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People change jobs for family reasons all the time, and most are lauded for it, so I'm not sure how it qualifies as unprofessional.
 
Smurfy said:
People change jobs for family reasons all the time, and most are lauded for it, so I'm not sure how it qualifies as unprofessional.
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I don't expect everyone to necessarily agree and I don't completely disagree with his decision of it was that. For me though it can be the right choice and unprofessional too. Usually there is a change in circumstances for family reasons. I don't see what's changed massively since he was at Leicester and then England. Again it's not like he came from NZ and realised actually he missed his family too much. It clearly wasn't an issue when he worked with S.A. England recruited him with a plan, so to jump ship because of family reasons or because you were offered a better deal might be beneficial for him, but can still be unprofessional because you were hired to do a job with the expectation of fulfilling that job description. In other professions, if you quit part way through a project the person who hired you is not necessarily going to recommend you or give you a good reference.
 
Rugbyfan564 said:
www.dailymail.co.uk

South African-born Jacques Vermeulen targets England call-up

Exeter's South African-born forward Jacques Vermeulen has targeted an England call this season after returning to Exeter in tip-top shape to try and impress Steve Borthwick.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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I rate him and he would do a good job but tbh we don't need him, we have CCS filling that hard carry back row role and at 29 he isnt going to improve massively. Don't blame the guy but he won't get a cap IMO.
 

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