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England 2024/25

Reiser99 said:
I don't expect everyone to necessarily agree and I don't completely disagree with his decision of it was that. For me though it can be the right choice and unprofessional too. Usually there is a change in circumstances for family reasons. I don't see what's changed massively since he was at Leicester and then England. Again it's not like he came from NZ and realised actually he missed his family too much. It clearly wasn't an issue when he worked with S.A. England recruited him with a plan, so to jump ship because of family reasons or because you were offered a better deal might be beneficial for him, but can still be unprofessional because you were hired to do a job with the expectation of fulfilling that job description. In other professions, if you quit part way through a project the person who hired you is not necessarily going to recommend you or give you a good reference.
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Perhaps my experience in business is different to yours, but I've found that changing jobs for family reasons is one of the most acceptable and understandable reasons for changing jobs. I don't know his family situation but it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he has a young family, and that was his reason for moving initially to England from SA. With Jason Cowman leaving his Athletic Performance position with the Ireland team it presented an opportunity that hadn't been there when he took up the Leicester, and then England, roles. Poaching coaching personnel is a time honoured tradition in rugby, but it's only bad really when it happens to your side. When you're doing the poaching it's generally seen as being quite clever.
 
There's plenty of valid family reasons that wouldn't be published.

Maybe a poorly child, maybe an elderly relative diagnosed with something. Maybe the family weren't really ever settled in Leicester (I mean who would be).

As said above, Jones is the worrying move. Maybe Borthwick didn't get on with him, pushed him around the roles and realised he wasn't a good fit? Who knows but starting to see some worrying signs.

It's not panic stations yet though.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
There's plenty of valid family reasons that wouldn't be published.

Maybe a poorly child, maybe an elderly relative diagnosed with something. Maybe the family weren't really ever settled in Leicester (I mean who would be).

As said above, Jones is the worrying move. Maybe Borthwick didn't get on with him, pushed him around the roles and realised he wasn't a good fit? Who knows but starting to see some worrying signs.

It's not panic stations yet though.
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The finger is definitely hovering over the button and if we replace them with some mediocre coaches with no experience, then it's definitely panic stations. England should be able to get the best coaches in the world.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
There's plenty of valid family reasons that wouldn't be published.

Maybe a poorly child, maybe an elderly relative diagnosed with something. Maybe the family weren't really ever settled in Leicester (I mean who would be).

As said above, Jones is the worrying move. Maybe Borthwick didn't get on with him, pushed him around the roles and realised he wasn't a good fit? Who knows but starting to see some worrying signs.

It's not panic stations yet though.
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No panic stations...

Radford, Vesty...thats a decent start ;)
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
The finger is definitely hovering over the button and if we replace them with some mediocre coaches with no experience, then it's definitely panic stations. England should be able to get the best coaches in the world.
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We did. Just couldn't hold on to them…..

Whatever the real reasons, it ramps up the pressure on SB, especially as Walters, Jones and Sinfield all seemed to be popular with the players.
 
Trouble brewing already

Rows brewing over central contracts – before RFU has even unveiled them
Gallagher Premiership clubs fear upcoming deals will give England and Steve Borthwick too much control over player availability, with up to 25 internationals expected to gain hybrid contracts

Gallagher Premiership coaches have raised concerns about how disputes between club and country will be resolved as confusion clouds the rollout of the RFU's new central contract system.

The impending deal is set to allow the RFU to offer up to 25 players hybrid contracts with their clubs, which would give the national team input on players' fitness and medical decisions while they are with their domestic sides.

However, worries are growing about the agreement before it has been unveiled, with Premiership coaches unclear how disputes will be resolved when there is a difference of opinion between Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the clubs over the players with hybrid deals.

Under the new system Borthwick will work with the player and his club coach to attempt to determine the best approach — but if the two parties fail to agree, a single independent reviewer will be appointed to adjudicate by a board that will be set up to oversee the new deal. Both the RFU and the clubs will be clearly keen to ensure that the appointment is genuinely independent.

"I've had some conversations with Steve with regard to some of the shared work and we are generally pretty aligned," Phil Dowson, the Northampton Saints director of rugby, said. "But how it works out when it becomes a conflict and who the independent [reviewer] is, if it gets to that point… it will be interesting to see who they appoint there.

"Training camps, England selections and the enhanced EPS [Elite Player Squad] stuff, we are still waiting for more detail on who that's going to involve and what it is going to look like. It's going to take some time to understand the flaws and foibles and make sure we know what we are doing."

Rob Baxter, Dowson's counterpart at Exeter Chiefs, articulated similar concerns over the uncertainty last week. "Strength and conditioning and medical decisions will be made by the England head coach, while selection for Premiership and European Cup games will be made by the clubs," Baxter said. "But if you're in control of someone's medical decisions, you're deciding when they play, aren't you?"

Borthwick is under significant pressure after the recent resignations of two key coaches, Aled Walters, the highly rated strength and conditioning coach who has joined Ireland, and Felix Jones, the defence coach who had rejuvenated England with the introduction of a blitz defensive system. Their departures have rocked the England team after a season in which they appeared to be making progress, with a victory over Ireland in the Six Nations and two close defeats on the summer tour to New Zealand.

Uncertainty over the management of players' fitness and medical programmes illustrates one clear reason why Walters, in particular, would opt to leave England and work with Ireland, where the needs of the national team are given clear priority. Dowson, whose side won the Premiership last season, was asked whether he could envisage potential conflict if, for example, the England wing Tommy Freeman were to take up a hybrid contract.

"Yeah, potentially," Dowson said. "You sometimes get guys who need an injection on a joint and that might need a week or two weeks off. If that is just before the Six Nations starts, does he miss the last [club] game for Saints to be available for England? If you start taking players out because you are saving them, effectively, to play for England, then that becomes an issue. I don't think conflict will happen very often, but it's interesting to see whom they appoint to arbitrate how that goes."

The new Professional Game Partnership agreement, which includes the RFU paying £33million to the clubs, is due to be launched shortly with the first Premiership matches on September 20. Borthwick is expected to name fewer than 25 players on contracts of about £160,000 per season.

Maro Itoje and the England captain Jamie George, both of whom were out of contract with Saracens at the end of last season, are the only two players to have agreed such deals to date.
Borthwick will work with club coaches on the players' individual development plans and where the parties can not come to an agreement, the independent reviewer will be called upon to issue judgment. "Hopefully they've got a big white wig and a gavel," Dowson said.

The lack of harmony between clubs and country has long been seen as a problem for the England head coach and the new partnership was intended as a step in the right direction at a time when the national team have won the Six Nations only once in the past seven seasons.
However, uncertainty over the management of players seems set to continue under the new system, exposing once again the fault lines that have scarred English rugby since the start of the professional era.
 
Mad that there's two players on these contracts already but they've not been announced yet
 
Geordie said:
Trouble brewing already

Rows brewing over central contracts – before RFU has even unveiled them
Gallagher Premiership clubs fear upcoming deals will give England and Steve Borthwick too much control over player availability, with up to 25 internationals expected to gain hybrid contracts

Gallagher Premiership coaches have raised concerns about how disputes between club and country will be resolved as confusion clouds the rollout of the RFU's new central contract system.

The impending deal is set to allow the RFU to offer up to 25 players hybrid contracts with their clubs, which would give the national team input on players' fitness and medical decisions while they are with their domestic sides.

However, worries are growing about the agreement before it has been unveiled, with Premiership coaches unclear how disputes will be resolved when there is a difference of opinion between Steve Borthwick, the England head coach, and the clubs over the players with hybrid deals.

Under the new system Borthwick will work with the player and his club coach to attempt to determine the best approach — but if the two parties fail to agree, a single independent reviewer will be appointed to adjudicate by a board that will be set up to oversee the new deal. Both the RFU and the clubs will be clearly keen to ensure that the appointment is genuinely independent.

"I've had some conversations with Steve with regard to some of the shared work and we are generally pretty aligned," Phil Dowson, the Northampton Saints director of rugby, said. "But how it works out when it becomes a conflict and who the independent [reviewer] is, if it gets to that point… it will be interesting to see who they appoint there.

"Training camps, England selections and the enhanced EPS [Elite Player Squad] stuff, we are still waiting for more detail on who that's going to involve and what it is going to look like. It's going to take some time to understand the flaws and foibles and make sure we know what we are doing."

Rob Baxter, Dowson's counterpart at Exeter Chiefs, articulated similar concerns over the uncertainty last week. "Strength and conditioning and medical decisions will be made by the England head coach, while selection for Premiership and European Cup games will be made by the clubs," Baxter said. "But if you're in control of someone's medical decisions, you're deciding when they play, aren't you?"

Borthwick is under significant pressure after the recent resignations of two key coaches, Aled Walters, the highly rated strength and conditioning coach who has joined Ireland, and Felix Jones, the defence coach who had rejuvenated England with the introduction of a blitz defensive system. Their departures have rocked the England team after a season in which they appeared to be making progress, with a victory over Ireland in the Six Nations and two close defeats on the summer tour to New Zealand.

Uncertainty over the management of players' fitness and medical programmes illustrates one clear reason why Walters, in particular, would opt to leave England and work with Ireland, where the needs of the national team are given clear priority. Dowson, whose side won the Premiership last season, was asked whether he could envisage potential conflict if, for example, the England wing Tommy Freeman were to take up a hybrid contract.

"Yeah, potentially," Dowson said. "You sometimes get guys who need an injection on a joint and that might need a week or two weeks off. If that is just before the Six Nations starts, does he miss the last [club] game for Saints to be available for England? If you start taking players out because you are saving them, effectively, to play for England, then that becomes an issue. I don't think conflict will happen very often, but it's interesting to see whom they appoint to arbitrate how that goes."

The new Professional Game Partnership agreement, which includes the RFU paying £33million to the clubs, is due to be launched shortly with the first Premiership matches on September 20. Borthwick is expected to name fewer than 25 players on contracts of about £160,000 per season.

Maro Itoje and the England captain Jamie George, both of whom were out of contract with Saracens at the end of last season, are the only two players to have agreed such deals to date.
Borthwick will work with club coaches on the players' individual development plans and where the parties can not come to an agreement, the independent reviewer will be called upon to issue judgment. "Hopefully they've got a big white wig and a gavel," Dowson said.

The lack of harmony between clubs and country has long been seen as a problem for the England head coach and the new partnership was intended as a step in the right direction at a time when the national team have won the Six Nations only once in the past seven seasons.
However, uncertainty over the management of players seems set to continue under the new system, exposing once again the fault lines that have scarred English rugby since the start of the professional era.
Click to expand...

Bit of a non-story. Unless the clubs and national team interests are properly aligned (yeah right….) we know that there are going to be conflicts and teething issues - the only question is their seriousness. This is Dowson scent marking his, and the clubs, territory.

An independent reviewer sounds like a good idea in theory, but almost certainly in practice will be perceived as having a bias to one side or another depending on the decisions made. There's a risk of that backfiring and becoming divisive. Presumably only expected to be needed occasionally as a last resort. Plus as a fan do I really want someone independent making decisions that may affect my team?
 
I hate the fact that the two players to get these contracts already are two Sarries players. Much bias there? George shouldn't really be on one but why is Itoje after he just got a marquee Sarries deal.

Stupid and bias.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Bit of a non-story. Unless the clubs and national team interests are properly aligned (yeah right….) we know that there are going to be conflicts and teething issues - the only question is their seriousness. This is Dowson scent marking his, and the clubs, territory.

An independent reviewer sounds like a good idea in theory, but almost certainly in practice will be perceived as having a bias to one side or another depending on the decisions made. There's a risk of that backfiring and becoming divisive. Presumably only expected to be needed occasionally as a last resort. Plus as a fan do I really want someone independent making decisions that may affect my team?
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Dowson will always do what's best for the club, his team. Borthwick will want to do what's best for him and England. There's going to be clashes i can't see how you avoid it. Who has the say when players are rested etc.

As a player I'm not sure I'd be particularly happy being stuck in the middle.
 
Saintjay said:
Dowson will always do what's best for the club, his team. Borthwick will want to do what's best for him and England. There's going to be clashes i can't see how you avoid it. Who has the say when players are rested etc.

As a player I'm not sure I'd be particularly happy being stuck in the middle.
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There is supposed to be this independent adjudicator, but what happens when the decision is either to miss a club game or miss an international? Without a decision making matrix of some kind how they hell do you adjudicate that?

Also noting what Baxter has said, if England get to manage their s&c medical etc then England decide when they play, end of discussion as you can't argue with medical.

I see a disaster Incoming but at least it's not Borthwicks fault.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
I hate the fact that the two players to get these contracts already are two Sarries players. Much bias there? George shouldn't really be on one but why is Itoje after he just got a marquee Sarries deal.

Stupid and bias.
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What's stupid is that these 2 have been made public in isolation. Everything should have been done together.

George may be past his best but he's the captain and still first choice while Itoje is seen as one of our top players and possibly George's successor as skipper. If these things are to have any credibility they can't not be included.

As an England fan I support the general principle. Might be less keen if I was a die hard club fan. Everything has teething problems, and things may well get worse before they get better.

I can't see it due to competing interests, but in many ways I hope this is just the first step in greater club / country alignment.
 
Seems these days England as a whole is incredibly dysfunctional. Every time I think we Yankees look crazy, I just read the latest UK headlines.

I bet Jones joins Leinster to help Jacques.
 
It's pretty much impossible for this to happen without teething problems, will have to see how things transpire, we all complain when nothing changes and England are doing relatively poorly yet very keen to pick holes in any attempt to make changes.

Ultimately I think somewhere in the middle could work wonders conflict wise, Rugby world cups only occur every four years so will be a tougher ship to steer but will require its own unique take , outside of that I'd think the 6 nations is the main priority there might be key games but the dates calendar wise are not amongst the most important for club rugby (IIRC calendar wise) let England have more favour here, summer/autumn windows are a bit meh, and can collide let clubs have the favour, use it as an opportunity to blood potential fringe players where ever possible.
 
Jimbo said:
It's pretty much impossible for this to happen without teething problems, will have to see how things transpire, we all complain when nothing changes and England are doing relatively poorly yet very keen to pick holes in any attempt to make changes.

Ultimately I think somewhere in the middle could work wonders conflict wise, Rugby world cups only occur every four years so will be a tougher ship to steer but will require its own unique take , outside of that I'd think the 6 nations is the main priority there might be key games but the dates calendar wise are not amongst the most important for club rugby (IIRC calendar wise) let England have more favour here, summer/autumn windows are a bit meh, and can collide let clubs have the favour, use it as an opportunity to blood potential fringe players where ever possible.
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Unfortunately every club now now matters with only a ten team league. You can't afford to rest your key players at all.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
Unfortunately every club now now matters with only a ten team league. You can't afford to rest your key players at all.
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I agree to a point, that premiership cup should involve far more youth, used only to get established players up-to speed if returning from injury, I know it won't be a popular opinion but as the champions cup is well out of reach for the majority of prem clubs I am personally not adverse to putting far less than strongest team out, does this devalue the comp, yes to some extend but if they are not going to be anywhere near competitive anyway why sacrifice the entirety of the season. This for me will make the Premiership a better product. Whilst not perfect is where we are and things can be worked out over time, not trying any changes will not make the situation better.
 
It is weird the standards the Prem is held to - especially when people point to the Irish system when Leinster are the only team to have won it since telly was in black and white and two different English clubs have won it since the last time Leinster did

Obv not saying the prem is perfect, nor am I bad mouthing the provincial system in Ireland, just saying I think we win it about as much as you'd expect, especially considering the money in France
 

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