- Joined
- Jun 23, 2017
- Messages
- 2,915
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Joe Marler: England prop retires from international rugby
England prop Joe Marler retires from international rugby having won 95 caps.
www.bbc.co.uk
Exactly thisI think there's a lot of truth to this. Paul Gustard tried to turn Quins in to Saracens, failed and then we won a ***le playing a style that suited the players. There's no point picking attacking players and saying you want to play ambitious rugby, when that all disappears on game day.
Funnily enough a lot of Sale fans saying the same about Sanderson atm tooI think there's a lot of truth to this. Paul Gustard tried to turn Quins in to Saracens, failed and then we won a ***le playing a style that suited the players.
One other thing … Ben Earl's tackle technique needs attention. A bit like in the France game, an avoidable 'no arms' tackle cost us at a really important point of the game.
why will they not be ale to import players? because thr french have more money?I think there's a lot of truth to this. Paul Gustard tried to turn Quins in to Saracens, failed and then we won a ***le playing a style that suited the players. There's no point picking attacking players and saying you want to play ambitious rugby, when that all disappears on game day.
On England's level being 4th or 5th, I think a lot of that depends on factors totally out of our control. SA are always or thereabouts but Ireland and France are in 'golden' eras that may not last. French rugby's popularity should give them the sustainability to continue at their current level but I'm not sure Ireland in have the same calibre of players coming through to replace those they'll be losing to Father Time. They also won't be able to import he next generation of Aki, Hansen and Lowe quite as easily.
why will they not be ale to import players? because thr french have more money?
Correct. Raising the residency requirements from 3-5 years simply means that it's less likely they'll have Kiwis, South Africans and Aussies swelling their ranks unless they're Irish qualified through a parent/grandparent.
Given that their best team includes three Kiwis (JGP, Aki and Lowe) and an Australian (Hansen), it's not insignificant. Although, success breeds success, so I would imagine there has been an increase in kids playing the game in Ireland since they became a top side.
There's many more informed than I on this, yourself included I'm sure, but haven't Ireland done pretty well over the last few years in terms of under 20 6N wins?Is anyone outside of Leinster consistently producing though? I'm a fairly regular attendee at Ravenhill and while Ulster have a fairly decent pipeline of good players coming through (Hume, Postlethwaite, Stewart etc.), I'm not sure they're going to be truly top class. You could say similar for Munster and Connacht.
I think the issue here comes from treating the Irish provinces as synonymous with Leinster. The Irish system has become very good at aligning the national side with a single club, so one almost functions as an extension of the other. The remaining Irish provinces, whilst punching above their weight, do not have the same degree of success at club level nor in terms of their contribution to the national side. Remove Leinster and the Irish system is fairly average.I think England will struggle to get past us consistently with the current contrast in club / provincial structure. Since 03, I think it's fair to say the only sustained period where England were a better team than Ireland was 2016 - 2020 and that Ireland have been the better of the two more often than not. I think it's also a pretty good time period to use because 04 is when the Irish team started to see some success from their (late) adaptation to the pro game and when England lost their core group of elite players who were at a level the game hadn't seen before due to their early and positive adaptation to the pro game. 04 was a somewhat more level playing field that hadn't really ever existed between the two before given the status of the game here in the 20th century.
That's all to say, that three residency guys aren't why we're better than England and all of them have only worked out as products of a massive advantage Ireland has. The IRFU controls how the provinces, and any Irish representative side play and the primary objective of each of those teams is to churn out international players, club trophies aren't the main indicator of success at that level for the IRFU. There's certain core skills that every province bases their game around, the shapes and formations are different so each side can work optimally within the system but every player is being assessed by the same KPIs and training and gameplans are largely focused on improving the skills related to them. This is also why you see Farrell pluck guys from provincial benches and turn them into first XV internationals while other provincial top performers don't make Ireland squads.
Meanwhile England have somewhere between 8 and 12 prem teams depending on the time of year, all playing to their own strengths with their primary objective being to win the prem and then a European comp, if anything a top performer not playing international rugby is the perfect employee. From the perspective of a club fan, this is far better imo, but I think it limits success for England. Saints, Sarries, Tigers, Quins and Bath are all playing rugby very differntly from each other and providing the core of the international side. There's nothing a coach can do to create a system to suit all the top performers on all of these teams and the initial challenge becomes selecting players from the clubs who are good enough for international rugby and capable of playing whatever way England are going to play, there'll be bad selections here naturally that waste squad exposure and match minutes on unsuitable players. The next step is often morphing players who can play the system into the players they need to be, this takes time and will limit how often England are reaching optimal levels of performance. Take those two issues that are far less of a problem in Ireland, multiply it by about 15+ positions in any given extended England squad, add in that the standard of coach and player which will vary more than Ireland because of the lack of instruction manual, and all of a sudden the numbers advantage that England have looks like a bit of an afterthought.
England either need to gain control over how the clubs play or need a dominant English club, the first won't happen and the second is uncontrollable. So unless the structure below the EPS sees big change, I can only see England remaining a team whose level of play will vary significantly over each 5-10 year period whereas while we might not have the raw talent we saw a lot of success with from 2021-23, we'll generally be getting the very best out of the not massively limited source of talent thay we do have so whatever about the peaks of each team, Ireland's troughs shouldn't be as low.