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England v New Zealand - 2 November 2024

Ireland, France and SA play a game that suits there strengths. With the players at there disposal. It still comes down to needing 4\5 world class players of a number who'd make a world 23 in your squad.

I'm not sure Borthwick knows what game plan he wants. I think he wants to be Saracens/Leicester of old. Whilst trying to get the Saints / Quins more attack minded players to fit that.
He seems stuck between what he wants.

Unfortunately England's level is 4 or 5 in the world. I can't see it changing and it seems about right tbh.
 
I think there's a lot of truth to this. Paul Gustard tried to turn Quins in to Saracens, failed and then we won a ***le playing a style that suited the players. There's no point picking attacking players and saying you want to play ambitious rugby, when that all disappears on game day.

On England's level being 4th or 5th, I think a lot of that depends on factors totally out of our control. SA are always or thereabouts but Ireland and France are in 'golden' eras that may not last. French rugby's popularity should give them the sustainability to continue at their current level but I'm not sure Ireland in have the same calibre of players coming through to replace those they'll be losing to Father Time. They also won't be able to import he next generation of Aki, Hansen and Lowe quite as easily.
 
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I think there's a lot of truth to this. Paul Gustard tried to turn Quins in to Saracens, failed and then we won a ***le playing a style that suited the players. There's no point picking attacking players and saying you want to play ambitious rugby, when that all disappears on game day.
Exactly this

The best example of this was watching Randall when he came. He boxed kicked more in 20 mins than he would in several Bristol games.

If SB wanted a no frills SH Randall is not that guy. The pass to Ford for the drop goal was high and floaty as at Bristol he would either snipe himself of inject pace and spread it wide
 
Definitely. Ironically, the one who seems most adaptable is McCall himself, although when they developed a more attacking style that was credited to Farrell.
 
One other thing … Ben Earl's tackle technique needs attention. A bit like in the France game, an avoidable 'no arms' tackle cost us at a really important point of the game.

Players would prefer these grass cutter tackles were carded ahead of deliberate knock downs
 
Next time England lining up match winning drop goal in the 80th minute v All Blacks, I am certain they will ensure they have the half Cam Roigard trapped in the ruck.
 
I think there's a lot of truth to this. Paul Gustard tried to turn Quins in to Saracens, failed and then we won a ***le playing a style that suited the players. There's no point picking attacking players and saying you want to play ambitious rugby, when that all disappears on game day.

On England's level being 4th or 5th, I think a lot of that depends on factors totally out of our control. SA are always or thereabouts but Ireland and France are in 'golden' eras that may not last. French rugby's popularity should give them the sustainability to continue at their current level but I'm not sure Ireland in have the same calibre of players coming through to replace those they'll be losing to Father Time. They also won't be able to import he next generation of Aki, Hansen and Lowe quite as easily.
why will they not be ale to import players? because thr french have more money?
 
Correct. Raising the residency requirements from 3-5 years simply means that it's less likely they'll have Kiwis, South Africans and Aussies swelling their ranks unless they're Irish qualified through a parent/grandparent.

Given that their best team includes three Kiwis (JGP, Aki and Lowe) and an Australian (Hansen), it's not insignificant. Although, success breeds success, so I would imagine there has been an increase in kids playing the game in Ireland since they became a top side.
 
Correct. Raising the residency requirements from 3-5 years simply means that it's less likely they'll have Kiwis, South Africans and Aussies swelling their ranks unless they're Irish qualified through a parent/grandparent.

Given that their best team includes three Kiwis (JGP, Aki and Lowe) and an Australian (Hansen), it's not insignificant. Although, success breeds success, so I would imagine there has been an increase in kids playing the game in Ireland since they became a top side.

England post 03 shows you absolutely can't take that as read.

Although the Irish are probably a bit smarter than we were / will ever be.
 
I think England will struggle to get past us consistently with the current contrast in club / provincial structure. Since 03, I think it's fair to say the only sustained period where England were a better team than Ireland was 2016 - 2020 and that Ireland have been the better of the two more often than not. I think it's also a pretty good time period to use because 04 is when the Irish team started to see some success from their (late) adaptation to the pro game and when England lost their core group of elite players who were at a level the game hadn't seen before due to their early and positive adaptation to the pro game. 04 was a somewhat more level playing field that hadn't really ever existed between the two before given the status of the game here in the 20th century.

That's all to say, that three residency guys aren't why we're better than England and all of them have only worked out as products of a massive advantage Ireland has. The IRFU controls how the provinces, and any Irish representative side play and the primary objective of each of those teams is to churn out international players, club trophies aren't the main indicator of success at that level for the IRFU. There's certain core skills that every province bases their game around, the shapes and formations are different so each side can work optimally within the system but every player is being assessed by the same KPIs and training and gameplans are largely focused on improving the skills related to them. This is also why you see Farrell pluck guys from provincial benches and turn them into first XV internationals while other provincial top performers don't make Ireland squads.

Meanwhile England have somewhere between 8 and 12 prem teams depending on the time of year, all playing to their own strengths with their primary objective being to win the prem and then a European comp, if anything a top performer not playing international rugby is the perfect employee. From the perspective of a club fan, this is far better imo, but I think it limits success for England. Saints, Sarries, Tigers, Quins and Bath are all playing rugby very differntly from each other and providing the core of the international side. There's nothing a coach can do to create a system to suit all the top performers on all of these teams and the initial challenge becomes selecting players from the clubs who are good enough for international rugby and capable of playing whatever way England are going to play, there'll be bad selections here naturally that waste squad exposure and match minutes on unsuitable players. The next step is often morphing players who can play the system into the players they need to be, this takes time and will limit how often England are reaching optimal levels of performance. Take those two issues that are far less of a problem in Ireland, multiply it by about 15+ positions in any given extended England squad, add in that the standard of coach and player which will vary more than Ireland because of the lack of instruction manual, and all of a sudden the numbers advantage that England have looks like a bit of an afterthought.

England either need to gain control over how the clubs play or need a dominant English club, the first won't happen and the second is uncontrollable. So unless the structure below the EPS sees big change, I can only see England remaining a team whose level of play will vary significantly over each 5-10 year period whereas while we might not have the raw talent we saw a lot of success with from 2021-23, we'll generally be getting the very best out of the not massively limited source of talent thay we do have so whatever about the peaks of each team, Ireland's troughs shouldn't be as low.
 
Is anyone outside of Leinster consistently producing though? I'm a fairly regular attendee at Ravenhill and while Ulster have a fairly decent pipeline of good players coming through (Hume, Postlethwaite, Stewart etc.), I'm not sure they're going to be truly top class. You could say similar for Munster and Connacht.
 
Is anyone outside of Leinster consistently producing though? I'm a fairly regular attendee at Ravenhill and while Ulster have a fairly decent pipeline of good players coming through (Hume, Postlethwaite, Stewart etc.), I'm not sure they're going to be truly top class. You could say similar for Munster and Connacht.
There's many more informed than I on this, yourself included I'm sure, but haven't Ireland done pretty well over the last few years in terms of under 20 6N wins?

I know that's not the best metric but not a bad indicator for the future. You don't need a whole team of world class players either. A handful will do, alongside 10 very good players and a good coaching set up.
 
I think England will struggle to get past us consistently with the current contrast in club / provincial structure. Since 03, I think it's fair to say the only sustained period where England were a better team than Ireland was 2016 - 2020 and that Ireland have been the better of the two more often than not. I think it's also a pretty good time period to use because 04 is when the Irish team started to see some success from their (late) adaptation to the pro game and when England lost their core group of elite players who were at a level the game hadn't seen before due to their early and positive adaptation to the pro game. 04 was a somewhat more level playing field that hadn't really ever existed between the two before given the status of the game here in the 20th century.

That's all to say, that three residency guys aren't why we're better than England and all of them have only worked out as products of a massive advantage Ireland has. The IRFU controls how the provinces, and any Irish representative side play and the primary objective of each of those teams is to churn out international players, club trophies aren't the main indicator of success at that level for the IRFU. There's certain core skills that every province bases their game around, the shapes and formations are different so each side can work optimally within the system but every player is being assessed by the same KPIs and training and gameplans are largely focused on improving the skills related to them. This is also why you see Farrell pluck guys from provincial benches and turn them into first XV internationals while other provincial top performers don't make Ireland squads.

Meanwhile England have somewhere between 8 and 12 prem teams depending on the time of year, all playing to their own strengths with their primary objective being to win the prem and then a European comp, if anything a top performer not playing international rugby is the perfect employee. From the perspective of a club fan, this is far better imo, but I think it limits success for England. Saints, Sarries, Tigers, Quins and Bath are all playing rugby very differntly from each other and providing the core of the international side. There's nothing a coach can do to create a system to suit all the top performers on all of these teams and the initial challenge becomes selecting players from the clubs who are good enough for international rugby and capable of playing whatever way England are going to play, there'll be bad selections here naturally that waste squad exposure and match minutes on unsuitable players. The next step is often morphing players who can play the system into the players they need to be, this takes time and will limit how often England are reaching optimal levels of performance. Take those two issues that are far less of a problem in Ireland, multiply it by about 15+ positions in any given extended England squad, add in that the standard of coach and player which will vary more than Ireland because of the lack of instruction manual, and all of a sudden the numbers advantage that England have looks like a bit of an afterthought.

England either need to gain control over how the clubs play or need a dominant English club, the first won't happen and the second is uncontrollable. So unless the structure below the EPS sees big change, I can only see England remaining a team whose level of play will vary significantly over each 5-10 year period whereas while we might not have the raw talent we saw a lot of success with from 2021-23, we'll generally be getting the very best out of the not massively limited source of talent thay we do have so whatever about the peaks of each team, Ireland's troughs shouldn't be as low.
I think the issue here comes from treating the Irish provinces as synonymous with Leinster. The Irish system has become very good at aligning the national side with a single club, so one almost functions as an extension of the other. The remaining Irish provinces, whilst punching above their weight, do not have the same degree of success at club level nor in terms of their contribution to the national side. Remove Leinster and the Irish system is fairly average.

Whilst I feel the English system is less good for cohesion between clubs and country, it offers more opportunity to see different styles at play. I think the issue is more that England rugby is so woefully managed that we can't exploit our strengths nor mitigate our weaknesses. We have one of the largest player pools to choose from yet stubbornly stick with favourites in some places and churn through players in others. We have huge numbers of experienced coaches to call on yet go with the knee jerk flavour of the month. We have the resources to be one of the top jobs in rugby yet haemorrhage support staff and fail to get people with proven track records in the top job. We should be able to negotiate good contracts because people are desperate for the gig yet find ourselves constantly being bent over a barrel paying above market rates for average performers.

I think the fundamental issue is that rugby has become professional but the RFU has not, it's still run by a bunch of moronic old boys who haven't got a ******* clue.
 

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