England v New Zealand - 2 November 2024

[Saintjay]

I'll hit back with;

Have you ever seen your own team knocked out in the pool stages of their own World Cup?

Rfu is plagued by the jobs for the boys attitude. We have an attack coach that has less experience coaching than those found in championship level clubs… and it bloody shows

I have it was terrible. Then I remember that it warms my little soul to see England as the only NH team engraved on that trophy, and I sleep that little bit better

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Neither team particularly good. Some people have been saying England's defecne was good. I dont' agree, there were holes and the All Blacks should have done better to exploit them. All Blacks discipline terrible.

Glad we had this one first up. Will give us a chance to imporve before facing Irelan. No way do we beat Ireland unless we improve.

Stuart had the btter of WIlliams. But Impressed with Tosi for beating the baby.
Worried about the linouts, especially with Taylor likely out next week.

Beauden wasn't too bad until he was. I guess there is a good cahnce he won't be there next week. I think we have to play differnt tactics next week anyway - hold onto the ball more. We need to do our best to starve Ireland of possession.

Roigard often took too long to get the ball off teh deck. I think we shoudl consider TJ for next week.

Genuine question from an outsider.

How is S Barrett viewed back home as both player and skipper? I just don't see it.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Genuine question from an outsider.

How is S Barrett viewed back home as both player and skipper? I just don't see it.

He was arguably our top lock last year. good in the linout, good in the carry and on defence, huge workrate. But has always had discipline issues, and doesn't seem to have shown much form this year.

As skipper, I'm not sure anyone is convinced really. he has captained the crusaders to ccahmpionships for a few years under razor, and razor picked his guy. After last year's season, if you were to pick the player that was most likely to be starting at the next wrold cup, it woud be Scott. or perhaps jordie, but he hadn't had any leadership experience. so there's that.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Might sound biased but that was a game and game plan where Steward would've been a big boost.


Furbank was pretty wasted in attack by the gameplan

Borthwick doesn't seem to rate Steward anymore so it will be a surprise if he starts when Furbank is fit anytime soon

 

[IT157]

People will disagree with this but it Borthwick doesn't finish in the top two in the 6N then to me his position should be under threat. If (when) we lose to SA and if we lose to Ireland and France next year then he potentially could have won 1 game in 12 against the top teams. How is any England coach surviving with a record like that?. I don't think we will ever be top 3 in the World with this coach - and that should be the bare minimum for an England coach with the resources at his disposal IMO. I might be looking at it through a negative lens but honestly we've put up with this same old rubbish for over 20 years and I'm done with it.

How long do we have to 'learn'. Always the same old excuse. Tired of 'learning'

 

[Geordie]

This set of games and the 6n is the last dance for Borthwick in my opinion...and thats from a guy who has strongly defended him.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Dombrandt coming on will be the trigger for M Smith to either be subbed or moved to FB.

Called it…..

I'm not going to hammer Ford too much. I mean I am but it's got to be really difficult getting into the groove of a match after sitting on the bench for over an hour. Smith was going OK and had his kicking boots on. I get the logic, but still.

And to my dying day I will hate preordained substitutions of an entire front row. Especially as the drop off in quality / impact is clear.

 

[McTallshort]

A lot of crap flying about regarding the Smith/Ford substitution but I'm not sure how that would have stopped the scrum penalties. The thing we don't know is how tired Smith was. I'm pretty sure the GPS in the back of their shirts tells the coaching staff how the player is and they could have made a call on that.

It was a great game of Rugby, I'm really struggling to understand why people are so disappointed

 

[higgik]

Neither team particularly good. Some people have been saying England's defecne was good. I dont' agree, there were holes and the All Blacks should have done better to exploit them. All Blacks discipline terrible.

Glad we had this one first up. Will give us a chance to imporve before facing Irelan. No way do we beat Ireland unless we improve.

Stuart had the btter of WIlliams. But Impressed with Tosi for beating the baby.
Worried about the linouts, especially with Taylor likely out next week.

Beauden wasn't too bad until he was. I guess there is a good cahnce he won't be there next week. I think we have to play differnt tactics next week anyway - hold onto the ball more. We need to do our best to starve Ireland of possession.

Roigard often took too long to get the ball off teh deck. I think we shoudl consider TJ for next week.

Agree on the lack of accuracy, was scared every AB attack there was going to be a score, but they lost it with poor skills.

 

[higgik]

Borthwick doesn't seem to rate Steward anymore so it will be a surprise if he starts when Furbank is fit anytime soon

Might sound biased but that was a game and game plan where Steward would've been a big boost.


Furbank was pretty wasted in attack by the gameplan

This seems to be the issue, bit like our football team.
The coach has the game plan, the public pick the team.
We just hope they marry up.
When EJ picked the team, he picked players that fitted his game plan, and he got mocked for that. At least he stuck to his guns and said this is the way we want to play.
SB, wants to play pressure rugby, but using players that do not play that normally.
Either play possession with power and pace or pressurize the oppo into mistakes.

 

[BPM]

I think the comparison with the England football team under Southgate is apt.

For SA, 'The Bomb Squad' comes on to put their foot on the throat of the opponent. We use our bench to attempt to contain the opposition and protect a lead that is never big enough. A bit like how the football team go 1-0 up then try to shut up shop. The mentality is almost the polar opposite to the South Africans. Worse, we don't even pick the right personnel for a containment job.

These narrow defeats are infuriating. With the exception of the France game, it's like we stop playing at 60 mins, encourage the opposition to attack us until they inevitably score. Then spend the last 5mins trying to play again. It's bizarre.

Overall, that was a big backwards step from the summer and now 2/4 looks like our best case which is just not good enough.

Small positive, but I did think Spencer was better (and considerably zippier) than I expected him to be.

 

[BPM]

One other thing … Ben Earl's tackle technique needs attention. A bit like in the France game, an avoidable 'no arms' tackle cost us at a really important point of the game.

If Earl tackled properyly, Itoje's turnover wouldn't have been reversed and we wouldn't have gifted NZ the 3 points to make it a single score game. If I had to pinpoint the sucker punch of a momentum swing, it was that moment.

Same offence, very similar outcome.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

BTW am I right in thinking that Ford's last rugby was 6 minutes v Saracens on 28th September?

When are our coaches going to learn that there's no substitute for being battle hardened and match fit?

 

[Reiser99]

A lot of crap flying about regarding the Smith/Ford substitution but I'm not sure how that would have stopped the scrum penalties. The thing we don't know is how tired Smith was. I'm pretty sure the GPS in the back of their shirts tells the coaching staff how the player is and they could have made a call on that.

It was a great game of Rugby, I'm really struggling to understand why people are so disappointed

It was an entertaining game of rugby. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a good standard. I said earlier, for me both teams were poor and made plenty of mistakes.

 

[McTallshort]

It was an entertaining game of rugby. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a good standard. I said earlier, for me both teams were poor and made plenty of mistakes.

Both teams forced errors out of each other and entertainment is what you want

 

[Jimbo]

Borthwick doesn't seem to rate Steward anymore so it will be a surprise if he starts when Furbank is fit anytime soon

Agreed but saying Furbank is only advantageous over Steward in attack is disingenuous IMHO, I instantly think of times BB and VDM have shown up his serious lack of pace, once these things become known they are targeted exasperating the limitation.

 

[West Country Wail]

Borthwick isn't a winner. Last year a Bok fan loudly chastised me for backing Borthwick and kept repeating 'you will win nothing with him' as spittle softly landed on my face from his lofty height. I asked him who it should be and he said, Robbie Deans. He was very drunk.

 

[BPM]

Agreed but saying Furbank is only advantageous over Steward in attack is disingenuous IMHO, I instantly think of times BB and VDM have shown up his serious lack of pace, once these things become known they are targeted exasperating the limitation.

I agree. However, Steward would still have been better suited to yesterday's 'gameplan' such as it was.

The annoying thing is that when we did try to attack, we did some good things. We just abandoned it too quickly.

 

[BPM]

Borthwick isn't a winner. Last year a Bok fan loudly chastised me for backing Borthwick and kept repeating 'you will win nothing with him' as spittle softly landed on my face from his lofty height. I asked him who it should be and he said, Robbie Deans. He was very drunk.

How do you define who is a 'winner'? If it's purely down to winning 6 Nations and World Cups, you're talking about an extremely small group. Arguably, only Erasmus and Neinaber.

How do Farrell or Galthie's records in the 6th Nations rank against their QF exits in the RWC? Are they still winners?

 

[Geordie]

SB needs:

1.
Get some consistency and settlement in his coaching team....

2.
Get his selection issues ironed out. And realise predetermined subs don't always work!

3.
Hope that the abundance of "hopeful" talent coming through at prop (LH and TH) and Centres come through quicker rather than later!