England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[AlRums]

Actually the Times has said today it will only cost the RFU six months salaries to sack Borthwick and his coaches. So not as financially challenging.

But who would want the tainted chalice?

 

[Amiga500]

In 3 matches we've conceded 95 points. Only 15 were from pens, the other 80 were from tries and conversions. There's your number one problem.

Now to be fair, defence coach has just exited and they were looking like they were going places toward tail end of 6N.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Whilst I get what your saying, Marcus is a prem champion and has played big games in Europe as well.

I'd be looking to continue with Marcus and have a fin off the bench to develop as well.

Yeah that's the biggest failure in that regard currently. George Ford being picked to bench yesterday was borderline unacceptable to be honest. But the original question was essentially why is this even a conversation and it's because you have two contrasting talents doing everything they need to do at club level to take the reigns of the international team.

My opinion, not that it's worth anything more than passing a bit of time on here or at a lunch break or a pub, is that Fin is the guy I'd be investing the minutes into and I would have been doing so since the summer.

Like I've genuinely never seen such a well rounded, assured, controlled and skilled 10 playing at the level Fin was at 21 last year, everything was so clean. I'd watched him a lot last season, he looked like a modern ROG how he played in Thomond Park to win with 14 men and then when I watched him in the reverse fixture and the premiership, he always had time on the ball with plenty of options and picked the right one far more often than not. He can kick, he can pass, he takes it to the line, he's a linebreak threat and just always seems to be exactly where he should be. So I knew he was very good but then when he came to Leinster, he was probably the best player on the pitch in a losing team that were mostly on the back foot and clawed their way back in to nearly win. I felt like I saw something incredibly special.

I presume Wilkinson was like that at a young / younger age but equally it's an imperfect comparison because I think the starting point of what pro rugby has become today started when England really properly figured out what they were about in November 02 and dominated rugby for a year. (Different stratosphere to what the game is today but it was the first time rugby progressed beyond bash it up and throw it out even if it was only the first baby steps)

Ford and Farrell both had strong early starts to their careers but Ford could be shaky and could be gotten at by the opposition, it stuck with him to varying degrees in his career to date. Farrell was more assured but I don't think his distributing or playmaking was comparable to what Smith can do at the equivalent time of his career, Farrell got that up to an elite level but it was never quite natural like anyone in a GOAT conversation tends to be. Fin Smith looks kind of like the best of both to me, even physically he empties lads in defence, one of his issues is he's probably making too many tackles for a 10. Sexton was primarily playing amateur rugby at 21.

Admittedly, I haven't watched the prem yet this year, he might have fallen off a cliff or hit a rough patch but from the 6-7 games I saw last year (and I was aware of him before then so possibly going into the season before), I've just thought he's exceptional. We're all up on Prendergast in Leinster right now, he's a year younger and showing all he needs to and more in the Leinster / Irish system but I'd swap him for Fin in a heartbeat.

(Seeing later replies @Not Mike Brown's Sock and @BPM - think that covers it from the 2nd paragraph to here)

That said, given where England are and how the last few months have gone, Marcus warrants the 6 nations.

We're probably only 6-12 months away from having the same debate here, albeit Crowley is no Smith but still has the potential to be a highly effective international 10. It's a good "problem" to have, lower on the list for England than it will be for us I imagine, Ireland has always been a bit "good 10, good team" with David Humphreys being the unfortunate exception as the incumbent when we were too bad for that even to be true.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Now to be fair, defence coach has just exited and they were looking like they were going places toward tail end of 6N.

Yep, but that was then and this is now. The new guy needs some time, but on credentials it looks like we've traded down. And systems don't excuse some of the individual lapses. Results don't come with caveats and at the end of the day we've just conceded 4 tries per game which is going to make winning very difficult.

And why we needed a new guy in the first place is another matter.

 

[Amiga500]

Smith's great, no doubt about it but I think you have one 10 who has potential to be one of the best to ever play the game and it's not him even though he could / should reach the next bracket down.

Almost no chance that'll be achieved with England - too many possible options means too much chop and change in personnel with the changing wind directions.

 

[Rinkadink]

Genge is noisily stinking the place out.

See you found your scapegoat. Don't agree at all, especially when Fix Baxter has come on and objectively done worse in every facet of his game - not saying Baxter should be pilloried for that as he's developing but that's some serious bias there.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Yeah that's the biggest failure in that regard currently. George Ford being picked to bench yesterday was borderline unacceptable to be honest. But the original question was essentially why is this even a conversation and it's because you have two contrasting talents doing everything they need to do at club level to take the reigns of the international team.

My opinion, not that it's worth anything more than passing a bit of time on here or at a lunch break or a pub, is that Fin is the guy I'd be investing the minutes into and I would have been doing so since the summer.

Like I've genuinely never seen such a well rounded, assured, controlled and skilled 10 playing at the level Fin was at 21 last year, everything was so clean. I'd watched him a lot last season, he looked like a modern ROG how he played in Thomond Park to win with 14 men and then when I watched him in the reverse fixture and the premiership, he always had time on the ball with plenty of options and picked the right one far more often than not. He can kick, he can pass, he takes it to the line, he's a linebreak threat and just always seems to be exactly where he should be. So I knew he was very good but then when he came to Leinster, he was probably the best player on the pitch in a losing team that were mostly on the back foot and clawed their way back in to nearly win. I felt like I saw something incredibly special.

I presume Wilkinson was like that at a young / younger age but equally it's an imperfect comparison because I think the starting point of what pro rugby has become today started when England really properly figured out what they were about in November 02 and dominated rugby for a year. (Different stratosphere to what the game is today but it was the first time rugby progressed beyond bash it up and throw it out even if it was only the first baby steps)

Ford and Farrell both had strong early starts to their careers but Ford could be shaky and could be gotten at by the opposition, it stuck with him to varying degrees in his career to date. Farrell was more assured but I don't think his distributing or playmaking was comparable to what Smith can do at the equivalent time of his career, Farrell got that up to an elite level but it was never quite natural like anyone in a GOAT conversation tends to be. Fin Smith looks kind of like the best of both to me, even physically he empties lads in defence, one of his issues is he's probably making too many tackles for a 10. Sexton was primarily playing amateur rugby at 21.

Admittedly, I haven't watched the prem yet this year, he might have fallen off a cliff or hit a rough patch but from the 6-7 games I saw last year (and I was aware of him before then so possibly going into the season before), I've just thought he's exceptional. We're all up on Prendergast in Leinster right now, he's a year younger and showing all he needs to and more in the Leinster / Irish system but I'd swap him for Fin in a heartbeat.

(Seeing later replies @Not Mike Brown's Sock and @BPM - think that covers it from the 2nd paragraph to here)

That said, given where England are and how the last few months have gone, Marcus warrants the 6 nations.

We're probably only 6-12 months away from having the same debate here, albeit Crowley is no Smith but still has the potential to be a highly effective international 10. It's a good "problem" to have, lower on the list for England than it will be for us I imagine, Ireland has always been a bit "good 10, good team" with David Humphreys being the unfortunate exception as the incumbent when we were too bad for that even to be true.

I mean, fair enough and I genuinely hope you are right

 

[BPM]

See you found your scapegoat. Don't agree at all, especially when Fix Baxter has come on and objectively done worse in every facet of his game - not saying Baxter should be pilloried for that as he's developing but that's some serious bias there.

Not at all. I said a couple of posts later that Baxter isn't ready to be the starter. It was never about him being a better alternative.

Genge is 50+ cap experienced player and supposedly a leader but has played poorly. He talks a good game, but hasn't delivered for England in a while.

Making him a scapegoat would be suggesting he was responsible for us losing. I did no such thing, I simply questioned why he seems to avoid criticism when Stuart gets a lot more flak for better performances.

If you want to make your own fictitious narrative, be my guest. Feels like the bias here is yours …

But at least you were happy to see England lose.

 

[BPM]

Yeah that's the biggest failure in that regard currently. George Ford being picked to bench yesterday was borderline unacceptable to be honest. But the original question was essentially why is this even a conversation and it's because you have two contrasting talents doing everything they need to do at club level to take the reigns of the international team.

My opinion, not that it's worth anything more than passing a bit of time on here or at a lunch break or a pub, is that Fin is the guy I'd be investing the minutes into and I would have been doing so since the summer.

Like I've genuinely never seen such a well rounded, assured, controlled and skilled 10 playing at the level Fin was at 21 last year, everything was so clean. I'd watched him a lot last season, he looked like a modern ROG how he played in Thomond Park to win with 14 men and then when I watched him in the reverse fixture and the premiership, he always had time on the ball with plenty of options and picked the right one far more often than not. He can kick, he can pass, he takes it to the line, he's a linebreak threat and just always seems to be exactly where he should be. So I knew he was very good but then when he came to Leinster, he was probably the best player on the pitch in a losing team that were mostly on the back foot and clawed their way back in to nearly win. I felt like I saw something incredibly special.

I presume Wilkinson was like that at a young / younger age but equally it's an imperfect comparison because I think the starting point of what pro rugby has become today started when England really properly figured out what they were about in November 02 and dominated rugby for a year. (Different stratosphere to what the game is today but it was the first time rugby progressed beyond bash it up and throw it out even if it was only the first baby steps)

Ford and Farrell both had strong early starts to their careers but Ford could be shaky and could be gotten at by the opposition, it stuck with him to varying degrees in his career to date. Farrell was more assured but I don't think his distributing or playmaking was comparable to what Smith can do at the equivalent time of his career, Farrell got that up to an elite level but it was never quite natural like anyone in a GOAT conversation tends to be. Fin Smith looks kind of like the best of both to me, even physically he empties lads in defence, one of his issues is he's probably making too many tackles for a 10. Sexton was primarily playing amateur rugby at 21.

Admittedly, I haven't watched the prem yet this year, he might have fallen off a cliff or hit a rough patch but from the 6-7 games I saw last year (and I was aware of him before then so possibly going into the season before), I've just thought he's exceptional. We're all up on Prendergast in Leinster right now, he's a year younger and showing all he needs to and more in the Leinster / Irish system but I'd swap him for Fin in a heartbeat.

(Seeing later replies @Not Mike Brown's Sock and @BPM - think that covers it from the 2nd paragraph to here)

That said, given where England are and how the last few months have gone, Marcus warrants the 6 nations.

We're probably only 6-12 months away from having the same debate here, albeit Crowley is no Smith but still has the potential to be a highly effective international 10. It's a good "problem" to have, lower on the list for England than it will be for us I imagine, Ireland has always been a bit "good 10, good team" with David Humphreys being the unfortunate exception as the incumbent when we were too bad for that even to be true.

Still feels like a huge reach,

I might be wrong but sounds like you're basing your assessment of him being a possible GOAT on two very good matches against Munster?

Again, it's not that I don't rate him, I'm just surprised that you see him as a potential world beater.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Still feels like a huge reach,

I might be wrong but sounds like you're basing your assessment of him being a possible GOAT on two very good matches against Munster?

Again, it's not that I don't rate him, I'm just surprised that you see him as a potential world beater.

It's about 7 or 8 games. Watched a good bit of Saints in the prem last year, they played great rugby. Also the semi final against Leinster which is as high a standard as you'll get in club rugby as a prem player.

I just think he's showing high competence in skills that most 10s don't have until the second half of their 20s. They're the attributes that have made the best 10s the best 1ps over the past 20 years for me.

 

[McTallshort]

Just rewatching the game and it's pretty obvious in this game as in the last game that England's fitness levels are not where they should be. They always fade on the last 20 and that's nothing to do with Smith/Ford etc it's down to fitness and that needs to improve.

Also got to add that the Saffas are stacked from 1to 50 not just 1 to 23.

That's where England are weak. We have a decent 15 but a pretty crap 23. Not much point having players on the bench if they don't make an impact.

Oh and yes I agree, Genge is overrated

 

[Tighthead&blindside]

Genge got pinged for a couple of penalties. I can forgive him that because he was trying to get the low advantage on the set. You have to try that agaisnt a massive bok tighthead. If he gets under you its a pen anyway . He isn't playing that badly imho. It suits him better to come of the bench. Stuart did a great job and is our best tighthead now. I've heard people saying get the young props in. They aren't ready yet even though their level for their age is remarkable. I don't think it will be long before we see them at full international level. God willing, Fasogbon off the bench could be devastating.

 

[McTallshort]

Genge got pinged for a couple of penalties. I can forgive him that because he was trying to get the low advantage on the set. You have to try that agaisnt a massive bok tighthead. If he gets under you its a pen anyway . He isn't playing that badly imho. It suits him better to come of the bench. Stuart did a great job and is our best tighthead now. I've heard people saying get the young props in. They aren't ready yet even though their level for their age is remarkable. I don't think it will be long before we see them at full international level. God willing, Fasogbon off the bench could be devastating.

His scrummaging at international level isn't good enough

 

[Tighthead&blindside]

His scrummaging at international level isn't good enough

Val Rapava-Ruskin should be considered if he's on form for th 6N.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He's played 9 games in 2 years, with an average of less than 40mins per game, I think his time has passed sadly

With Genge being one of the (many many many) VCs I feel like he's gonna be a starter until there's a change in coaching personnel

I hope Obano gets called up for the 6N but I have little faith of him getting a full shot - Davidson's been in really good form this last 12months+ but hasn't made the bench (yet?)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just rewatching the game and it's pretty obvious in this game as in the last game that England's fitness levels are not where they should be. They always fade on the last 20 and that's nothing to do with Smith/Ford etc it's down to fitness and that needs to improve.

Possibly, but if it was a real issue the first place you'd expect to see it is in defence and against both the Boks and NZ we only conceded 10 in the second half - which we'd probably have taken before kick off.

Against Aus we conceded 22 in the second half, but still scored 19 so it's not like we were totally out on our knees.

That we didn't score after the 60th minute v NZ or 52nd v Aus is hugely disappointing. Fatigue may have contributed to some mistakes, but for me it's a peripheral factor to several others.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It's not fitness. Our defence is a mess because the players made mistakes or the system is shite. We won't know.

The attack was a mess as after a few phases, if smith wasn't as 10 things went to pot and the silly one out runners thing which is basic but I assume is a game plan thing.

If we sort those things and selection and the subs we might be getting somewhere.

As for the players, I don't like genge's attitude and he isn't a good enough scrummager.

George is way past his best.

Stuart has only started to look ok in these last three games.

Cole is a joke, Baxter is too early and Dan isn't international quality yet.

That's where are problems lay. Other teams have props who smash, tackle, pass and scrum. They have hookers who act as another back row in the loose. Other teams have a bench that make an impact.

The rest of the team apart from not having a 12 is alright. Just need SB to select a little better and stop playing people who have no game time.

 

[BPM]

Genge seems to go through more obvious peaks and troughs. At his best, he can be very good and is our best loosehead, but when he's not good, he drops quite significantly below the minimum standard I'd expect for a prop of his experience and status as a VC.

The scrummaging I can sort of forgive given last week's opposition and it was OK vs. NZ and Australia. However, his defensive positioning and decision-making have been notably bad over the AIs. He's been at fault for key missed tackles and line breaks that have really cost us and hasn't really done anything in particular to balance the ledger.

I also expect more from him as a leader. When Borthwick took over, I thought he might be a genuine candidate for the captaincy but all I really see from him is some gesticulating in the huddle at the end of games we've already lost and nothing obvious during the game.

I rate him and I want him to be better. At this point in his career he should have ironed out some of the inconsistencies.

@Don't Skip Leg Day., I agree for the most part although I do feel you're being a bit harsh on Dan. He's better than LCD (another who is past his best) IMO. I'd prefer Langdon over any of them though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd still take a 75% LCD over Dan tbh,
Dan can be absolutely electric on attack, but he's had some absolute howlers on defence and his darts are acceptable at best - he's only 23 so that might settle down down the line, but for right here right now I wouldn't have him in my 23 (/probably wouldn't have him in my EPS, as both Langdon and Oghre are in better form this season)