England 2023/24

[mdaclarke]

Spoke to Felix today. If his version is accurate then I think for England it will get worst before it gets better. Has nothing lined up either. He reckons Sinfield is replacing him also. But was very unhappy with a few things and effectively Borthwick "sold him a Ferrari but gave him an Astra" was his words

There was rumours online that the Sharks (South African not Sale) or Australia might be in for him.

If I was Razzie I'd be on the phone to bring him back into the Bok camp.

 

[munstermuffin]

There was rumours online that the Sharks (South African not Sale) or Australia might be in for him.

If I was Razzie I'd be on the phone to bring him back into the Bok camp.

As of this morning he had none but if I speculating:
IRFU - He was highly respected here in Munster and I'm sure there is numerous options. Ulster & Ireland being 2 obvious ones.
South Africa- Again massively respected and proven.
Aus - Strong links with Schmidt and Eoin Toolan
New Zealand - There is a possibility.

 

[McTallshort]

Doesn't look good on Borthwick

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Won't lie, would take him at Leinster in some capacity.

 

[Amiga500]

The only thing I can think and I am guessing, is that Borthwick doesn't let anyone run with their own ideas etc. too controlling maybe?

Or he keeps chopping and changing:

Match #1: we'll go with that Felix yeah, sounds good
Match #2: Ah, no, did you see the write up in the sunday times. can't do that two weeks in a row Felix
Match #3: Maybe we should try it again...

etc
etc

 

[Amiga500]

Would presume he's on a non compete so no international rugby. Head role at a club maybe? Timing doesn't make sense for that either.

If he comes to us, it'd definitely not break a non-compete rule.

'cos we're shite and hardly able to compete with anyone.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Only just read this,

Hard to imagine it's anything other than dissatisfaction with SB. I didn't think he was the right man for the job, but after a v difficult start things have started to look better with a decent player pool and a lot of scope for improvement.

Two well regarded coaches walking out in short order isn't a good look. Quite apart from the practical disruption that'll bring.

Talk of bringing Sinfield back, but given he also wanted out, you've got to wonder…..

 

[Reiser99]

Only just read this,

Hard to imagine it's anything other than dissatisfaction with SB. I didn't think he was the right man for the job, but after a v difficult start things have started to look better with a decent player pool and a lot of scope for improvement.

Two well regarded coaches walking out in short order isn't a good look. Quite apart from the practical disruption that'll bring.

Talk of bringing Sinfield back, but given he also wanted out, you've got to wonder…..

Sinfield was supposedly leaving, Wigglesworth was supposedly leaving. Honestly, it's a complete shitshow. Out of the entire main set of coaches on our scrum coach hasn't left or been about to leave.

I had another thought. Richard Hill is team manager and we know apparently Borthwick thinks his opinion is solid gold. I wonder if he's been interfering and influencing Borthwick to the point the others have had enough. (This is pure speculation btw).

 

[Reiser99]

Also the England Rugby Team wikipedia page definitely needs updating after this week.

 

[Booboobang]

Only just read this,

Hard to imagine it's anything other than dissatisfaction with SB. I didn't think he was the right man for the job, but after a v difficult start things have started to look better with a decent player pool and a lot of scope for improvement.

Two well regarded coaches walking out in short order isn't a good look. Quite apart from the practical disruption that'll bring.

Talk of bringing Sinfield back, but given he also wanted out, you've got to wonder…..

I would argue a lot fo that is to do with said coaches who have now left, one throwing shade as he did. Changing defensive system again... sure it will go great.

 

[Booboobang]

Sinfield was supposedly leaving, Wigglesworth was supposedly leaving. Honestly, it's a complete shitshow. Out of the entire main set of coaches on our scrum coach hasn't left or been about to leave.

I had another thought. Richard Hill is team manager and we know apparently Borthwick thinks his opinion is solid gold. I wonder if he's been interfering and influencing Borthwick to the point the others have had enough. (This is pure speculation btw).

The scrum coach is the only one without a solid reputation or shown marked imrpovement as well lmao.

If it is hill, then thats still on borthwick.

Changing almost an entire coaching team and lurching from tactical approach to tactical approach... such a bad look, so bad for development.

 

[Booboobang]

Sure, but there have been plenty of times when it was very evident that off field issues were contributing to poor performances, but in the last little while, that hasn't been the case.

If it really is so rotten, I would expect it to be a little more obvious or for there to have been leaks from unhappy players.

This only holds if the players are unhapy.

If the coaches are proffesional and doing their job while progressively getting less and less satisfied for whatever reason, no autonomy, chopping and changing, lack of influence of selection whatever it is, it wouldnt show.

When it will show is when chopping and changing tactical approaches leads to poor performances and players start getting blamed, they will soon show disatisfaction then.

Toxic culture for coaches doesnt show up as much untill you are cycling through them every season and progressively getting worse as no development within a system occurs.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Times saying that Borthwick had recently upped Jones role from defence to second in command.

Whatever's gone on, you don't jack in a highly paying job after a few months unless something's badly wrong.

Apparently he has a 12 month notice. Some talk that England want him to serve that which would be plain ridiculous - you don't want people around who have mentally moved on. It's just the starting point for financial discussions.

 

[BPM]

I wouldn't want him to serve the notice, but if it's in his contract, why let him strengthen a rival if you can prevent it? The better option is to make him wait it out.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah put him on gardening leave or allow him to join a club level side

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Idk I think Borrhwick has no clue how to delegate things


Jones was an attack coach and signed as a defence coach
Sinfield moves from defence to skills, kicking and mentorship
Six nations we realise that we don't coach any attack and our attack is useless so Jones moves to a all round role helping with attack also.
Sinfield prob moves back to help with defence again
NZ test everyone moves back again
Andrew Strawbridge comes in as a coaching consultant for whatever

Walters was Borthwicks number 2 and leaves for ireland, Borthwick prob tries to put Jones in that role. Jones gets annoyed because he might feel he's never going to get time to implement his ideas if he is having to help with everyone else.


So that's my reckoning Jones is prob tired of having to help coach the inexperienced coaching team Borthwick surrounded himself with

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I wouldn't want him to serve the notice, but if it's in his contract, why let him strengthen a rival if you can prevent it? The better option is to make him wait it out.

You'd hope he had restrictive covenants and that as he's resigned wouldn't be entitled to any payouts. But deals can always be struck.

 

[Saintjay]

I wouldn't want him to serve the notice, but if it's in his contract, why let him strengthen a rival if you can prevent it? The better option is to make him wait it out.

I'd rather they look at what caused the move, internal issues / structures or whatever.

He doesn't want to be there, let him move on. The RFU will spend more time worrying about who who or where he might go, than time dealing with the cause of the problem. That on face value appears to keep happening.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Idk I think Borrhwick has no clue how to delegate things


Jones was an attack coach and signed as a defence coach
Sinfield moves from defence to skills, kicking and mentorship
Six nations we realise that we don't coach any attack and our attack is useless so Jones moves to a all round role helping with attack also.
Sinfield prob moves back to help with defence again
NZ test everyone moves back again
Andrew Strawbridge comes in as a coaching consultant for whatever

Walters was Borthwicks number 2 and leaves for ireland, Borthwick prob tries to put Jones in that role. Jones gets annoyed because he might feel he's never going to get time to implement his ideas if he is having to help with everyone else.


So that's my reckoning Jones is prob tired of having to help coach the inexperienced coaching team Borthwick surrounded himself with

This all sounds depressingly logical

 

[Scotty]

Times saying that Borthwick had recently upped Jones role from defence to second in command.

Apparently he has a 12 month notice. Some talk that England want him to serve that which would be plain ridiculous - you don't want people around who have mentally moved on. It's just the starting point for finandiscussions.

I really hope its not Borthwick that's the problem, him or the RFU seem the only options.

Sinfield was implementing a rush defence before Jones came in so hopfully Jones will carry on work with Sinfield so he can take over and we don't lose too much progress. Depends type of man Jones is, will he give his all for 12 months or will he let t seep in and be complacent and check put mentally.


Worst thing about all this is our defence looked much improved and good even, we wernt dropping off in games despite this energy sapping defence...our defence and strength and conditioning coaches are leaving.... our attack is okish and the attack coach is staying.