[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: Scotland vs Wales (25/02/2017)

[ThebigARena]

I have the citing commission you have a bunch of drunk Irishmen.

are you telling me brown is not a total arse??hez an absolute cock and to think the players that had that 15 shirt before him quality class acts

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You know what...let's forget about the poor tactics by Wales and focus on the fact that Scotland produced a stunning second half performance and blew Wales away. I said at the start top 3 and I hope they prove me right, with England winning the whole comp, because if the Scottish pack and play at the same level across the board and set up the back more, then Scotland winning the 6N's might not be far off. Hell if they do beat England, which is certainly possible, they have Italy left, so would definitely be competing come the final weekend.

Absolutely concede that Scotland deserve that win 20 points to nil in the second half tells you everything. I a, not making excuses for tactics or anything Scotland were just the better team , they were fitter and stronger and deserved the win end of. I still think we have another big performance in us be that against Ireland (most likely) or France but it is what it is , we need to rebuild and that means a new coaching team . As I mentioned after the World Cup a new fresh coaching team should of come in but it didn't happen , I really hope no Welsh players get picked for the lions as we need to rebuild and we do have the talent at youth level

 

[Bluemoon]

I don't know enough about Welsh rugby to say who should be in the team although the likes of Roberts, J Davies, Lee, Evans and others are not international standard, let alone world class. The fact is that Wales are stagnant precisely because they haven't been rebuilding. You got your golden generation 4 years ago and now the coaches are desperately clinging to it in the hopes they can build some great Welsh resurgence on it. To be Cuthbert highlights the problems in Welsh rugby. A player low on confidence, responsible for numerous costly ****ups and with others available to take his place and yet he features again and again and again because 4 years ago he was part of the 30-3 win against England. He has done sod all since then.

You make the sound of changing the team so easy. If those players you mention were dropped and younger and much less experienced players were brought through you'd find Wales losing by considerably more points. Dropping the current players like you suggest isn't the answer, and frankly isn't an option for Wales as there isn't that many viable alternatives. Don't get me wrong, there have been some games in November where perhaps a few players could been blooded, but suggesting that mass changes should be made shows that you don't really have much awareness of the Welsh player pool at this moment.

I think a change of coaching staff are now genuinely needed to bring some fresh ideas to a still talented bunch of players. I don't think Wales are actually clinging on to the past, I think the current coaching is too scared/lacking the ideas of how to make changes for the future.

 

[ThebigARena]

You make the sound of changing the team so easy. If those players you mention were dropped and younger and much less experienced players were brought through you'd find Wales losing by considerably more points. Dropping the current players like you suggest isn't the answer, and frankly isn't an option for Wales as there isn't that many viable alternatives. Don't get me wrong, there have been some games in November where perhaps a few players could been blooded, but suggesting that mass changes should be made shows that you don't really have much awareness of the Welsh player pool at this moment.

I think a change of coaching staff are now genuinely needed to bring some fresh ideas to a still talented bunch of players. I don't think Wales are actually clinging on to the past, I think the current coaching is too scared/lacking the ideas of how to make changes for the future.

Agree but young talent should of been blooded after the World Cup , instead we go into the 2017 six nations with dinosaurs like dr Roberts on the bench? Surely this is not progress?.. look at the lad Watson that came on for Scotland he had an outstanding game. We need to be seeing some different names in this Welsh squad but with the current management we have no chance

 

[Reiser99]

The situation is similar to Leicester and, sorry to use a football analogy again, arsenal with Wenger. Leicester got into a rut and while it wasn't all Cockers fault, he did seem to lack ideas on how to change the situation. Wenger can't change Arsenal enough to take that next step. Galtand and Howley as well, they got Wales to a great level, but haven't gone beyond. Wales have played a similar style of rugby since Warburton was named captain and while they have had some fantastic performances, other teams have adapted and developed quicker. I honestly don't see what Gatland and co could do different that would have a major impact.

Lancaster was similar as well thinking about it. He got England to a level where they were consistently runners up with the odd fantastic performance. He couldn't take them to the next level. That is what Wales are lacking, because they have the players (with maybe a couple of younger players getting blooded), but they aren't producing the performances.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Doesn't matter it wouldn't of made any difference in the result

Who cares about the result, this is about players undermining their captain.
If this is the case, and everyone thinks it's OK, then the culture in the Wales camp stinks.

 

[SelimNiai]

The thing is Wales were doing EXACTLY the same silly buggers stuff in the ruck against England and getting away with it. This is 2 games in a row and a really cynical streak is running through the Welsh side along with attitude problems from Webb and Biggar with AWJ not captaining well. I must say the entire attitude that is filling through the Welsh team is not a pretty one. It's petty, petulant and unsporting. England get a lot of flak for our players supposed arrogance, funnily enough it comes primarily from Welsh fans, but I think the Welsh team genuinely has an attitude problem right now.

Part of my criticisms with Biggar early in his career was he seemed to complain and show various dissent instead of focusing on his game, then he did that and became the top quality 10 we needed, lately I have noticed it creeping back into his game. That said its creeping more into the game across the board.

 

[Bluemoon]

Agree but young talent should of been blooded after the World Cup , instead we go into the 2017 six nations with dinosaurs like dr Roberts on the bench? Surely this is not progress?.. look at the lad Watson that came on for Scotland he had an outstanding game. We need to be seeing some different names in this Welsh squad but with the current management we have no chance

Ok as you've used JR as an example, who would you try in the 12 shirt? Beck's just back from injury (and I personally I can't see him making the step up), Tyler Morgan is off form, Corey Allen hasn't been able to get in the Cardiff team, Owen Williams has never been tested there and you could try Biggar, but we are talking about new players. That doesn't leave many who could make an impact to that team in the Six Nations. Then you'd be likely to look to even younger players who aren't playing domestically. Can you imagine the uproar in Wales if large risks were taken like that in the 6N without any track record of playing at club level?

I will agree that this management are not taking risks of any kind, and that has led to some lack of progress.

 

[Peat]

Which players should be in the Wales 23 who aren't?

Personally, if I had a pound for every time I've heard "X isn't good enough, we need to replace him, we could play Y instead" only for it to turn out that Y is no better or even worse than X, I could buy everyone here a good night in Amsterdam. As a result, I'm getting quite cynical about new players who'll be the answer, although god knows Wales need some. Or for the relative greenhorns to keep on learning.

Apparently Biggar/Halfpenny overrulled his captaincy choices as well (refused to kick for goal).
That just straight up shouldn't happen. What's the point in a captain if he can't make the decisions. Fair enough if it was a 60m shot to nothing and they were saying they couldn't make it, but that wasn't the case.
The players need to be held accountable for that, imo. Completely undermines the captaincy.

Where did you hear that?

 

[Reiser99]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39092731

This is why people were confused after ref signalled posts. I thought they couldn't change that decision once made. Hell coaches have thrown the kicking tee on to make decisions for players.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You make the sound of changing the team so easy. If those players you mention were dropped and younger and much less experienced players were brought through you'd find Wales losing by considerably more points. Dropping the current players like you suggest isn't the answer, and frankly isn't an option for Wales as there isn't that many viable alternatives. Don't get me wrong, there have been some games in November where perhaps a few players could been blooded, but suggesting that mass changes should be made shows that you don't really have much awareness of the Welsh player pool at this moment.

I think a change of coaching staff are now genuinely needed to bring some fresh ideas to a still talented bunch of players. I don't think Wales are actually clinging on to the past, I think the current coaching is too scared/lacking the ideas of how to make changes for the future.

How would you know? The Welsh management won't let them through! Look at all the times Cuthbert has been selected, can you honestly say picking one of the youth would have actually done worse? This is part of the problem, the conservative aversion to trying new players for fear they will be worse than the golden generation. The changes should have started being phased in 2 years ago as Wales U20 teams for 2012 and 13 were on a high to match the seniors. As it is Wales are setting themselves up for the same crash England had after the 2003 squad retired. There is time to fix it now but leave it another 2 years without a breakthrough at U20 level and you will have aging or out of form players in the squad without any sort of replacements ready. NZ give their youth loads of caps and that's why they don't ever seem to have "rebuilding" phases, it's continuous. NH teams tend to build a team that works, run it to retirement and then try to build the next team with an interim period where the less able and uncapped players have to find their feet.

Also that video of Danny Care, I'm still staggered Goode at 10 actually happened. Beware Wales for that fate will befall you if you don't look to get changes done sooner rather than later.

 

[Peat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39092731

This is why people were confused after ref signalled posts. I thought they couldn't change that decision once made. Hell coaches have thrown the kicking tee on to make decisions for players.

Ta.

Bad coaching there. There shouldn't be an argument about what you're doing in that situation because everyone should know what the right options are in each scenario. Obviously there's a bit of room for interpretation but if the team's leaders aren't singing from the same hymn sheet, they've not been through the situation properly. That or there's a serious rift. Pretty unusual for a captain to go and drop a team mate right in it in those circs.

Doesn't sound healthy whichever way you cut it.

 

[Rararaz]

Did anyone else notice what looked like a bit of a scrap around the 40th minute? Brown appeared to be pinning a Welsh player in a ruck (couldn't see who) then it looked like Brown struck him in the head. Then when the camera cut to a pitch side shot, R Gray looked like he struck a Welsh player but the ref slightly obscured it.

I may have imagined it as no one really seems to have mentioned it.

Also, not sure that the whole kicking to the corner/at posts thing will have done AWJ any good in terms on Lions captaincy chances. Thought he was immense in the tackle area today though.

 

[Peat]

How would you know? The Welsh management won't let them through! Look at all the times Cuthbert has been selected, can you honestly say picking one of the youth would have actually done worse? This is part of the problem, the conservative aversion to trying new players for fear they will be worse than the golden generation. The changes should have started being phased in 2 years ago as Wales U20 teams for 2012 and 13 were on a high to match the seniors. As it is Wales are setting themselves up for the same crash England had after the 2003 squad retired. There is time to fix it now but leave it another 2 years without a breakthrough at U20 level and you will have aging or out of form players in the squad without any sort of replacements ready. NZ give their youth loads of caps and that's why they don't ever seem to have "rebuilding" phases, it's continuous. NH teams tend to build a team that works, run it to retirement and then try to build the next team with an interim period where the less able and uncapped players have to find their feet.

Also that video of Danny Care, I'm still staggered Goode at 10 actually happened. Beware Wales for that fate will befall you if you don't look to get changes done sooner rather than later.

The Welsh have an average age of 26 and a half with only four players aged 30 or over and nine aged 25 or under; I don't think their squad is about to fall off a cliff any time soon.

And given the the back line had an average age of 21.3 on receiving their first cap and the pack an average age of 22, a willingness to trust young players isn't an issue either. I can't find where I up my figures for player usage in the 2011-15 World Cup cycle, but I really strongly doubt Wales were much off the average of a bit over 70.

I can't say I've ever thought Gatland a conservative selector - overly loyal at times perhaps, but very much given to gambling on youth and unestablished players - and the numbers back it up.

If the young bucks aren't making and sticking to the team, that's probably more on the player quality and less on Gatland. Which incidentally is the big difference between NH teams and NZ - we frequently undergo periods where there's simply no young players worth the candle. They've always got some ready to step in. Right now, Wales have a paucity of international ready youngsters. Well. Other than the ones already there.

 

[The Jones Boy]

If the young bucks aren't making and sticking to the team, that's probably more on the player quality and less on Gatland. Which incidentally is the big difference between NH teams and NZ - we frequently undergo periods where there's simply no young players worth the candle. They've always got some ready to step in. Right now, Wales have a paucity of international ready youngsters. Well. Other than the ones already there.

I agree with your argument but I don't agree with this paragraph.
I firmly believe there is boatloads of young talent in the NH.
England has a vast catchment and I have seen schoolboy rugby here that showcases young players of real quality, initiative and talent.
For my part as an extension of the Brexit vote the ERU should put a limit of two non British starting players in the first XV and two that can start from the bench. This should be instituted beyond premiership level.
Give some space for the homegrown talent to burgeon and you will see very quickly that England in particular, but also the other home nations, have quality younger talent coming through.
It's how that young talent is treated.
Itoje isn't a one off.

The issue is two fold. The club structure and the fear of relegation means that much more often than not young talent doesn't get a look in until its well into it's 20's which is often too late.
In NZ the coaches will throw young talent in there because the catchments are far smaller than England so they have to try to nurture the young talent or there won't be any. The young players and youth coaches know they will be looked at so precocious talent is encouraged not shelved for 6-8 years. Gaining that early experience at the top level allows players to get the feel of it earlier and to grow into a high octane environment far earlier than some of their NH counterparts.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Doesn't matter it wouldn't of made any difference in the result

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Ummmmm , legal in your eyes but the real view was different , mike absolutely knew what he was doing , he is a horrible player. To put it mildly he's the type of guy to tip a person out of their wheelchair just for a laugh, the guy is a scum bag I don't care what you say tbh. Webb and bigger play silly little tricks with the ref but they are mot malicious like brown

That's a pretty outrageous thing to say. Based on what? He's super competitive on field, but you just sound bitter mate. All teams have players that do stupid things. Healy on Cole springs to mind if we're going the Irish route, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people!

 

[Lé Ddanno]

With all this talk of players doing the stoopid, Tyler should be wheeling his favourite pic out about now.

Tyler, wake up!

 

[valley commando]

How would you know? The Welsh management won't let them through! Look at all the times Cuthbert has been selected, can you honestly say picking one of the youth would have actually done worse? This is part of the problem, the conservative aversion to trying new players for fear they will be worse than the golden generation. The changes should have started being phased in 2 years ago as Wales U20 teams for 2012 and 13 were on a high to match the seniors. As it is Wales are setting themselves up for the same crash England had after the 2003 squad retired. There is time to fix it now but leave it another 2 years without a breakthrough at U20 level and you will have aging or out of form players in the squad without any sort of replacements ready. NZ give their youth loads of caps and that's why they don't ever seem to have "rebuilding" phases, it's continuous. NH teams tend to build a team that works, run it to retirement and then try to build the next team with an interim period where the less able and uncapped players have to find their feet.

Also that video of Danny Care, I'm still staggered Goode at 10 actually happened. Beware Wales for that fate will befall you if you don't look to get changes done sooner rather than later.

I have to agree with you, Blue Moon is talking rubbish. The changes should have been made not in the autumn but in last years 6 nations. There would have been pain before gain, but we would be in a stronger position now if some fringe players had been properly tested with starting places.
These players should now be given a chance -:

Sam Parry to start with Dacey on the bench.
Sam Davies to start at 10.
Either Keelan Giles or Stef Evans to start with the other on the bench, North dropped.

This would at least be a start moving forward.

 

[Saint4805]

I have to agree with you, Blue Moon is talking rubbish. The changes should have been made not in the autumn but in last years 6 nations. There would have been pain before gain, but we would be in a stronger position now if some fringe players had been properly tested with starting places.
These players should now be given a chance -:

Sam Parry to start with Dacey on the bench.
Sam Davies to start at 10.
Either Keelan Giles or Stef Evans to start with the other on the bench, North dropped.

This would at least be a start moving forward.

The trouble is that it's a results business and Gatland needed results last year in order to get the nod for the Lions. Not a time to be taking risks from a personal perspective but unfortunately it has stalled Wales' rebuilding.

If I were in charge of the WRU I'd be thinking about getting Vern Cotter in after he's had a season or two at Montpellier. His brand of rugby would really appeal to Welsh fans.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Gotta love Eddie Butler referring to Tommy Seymour as Tommy Boyd throughout the game. What a muppet.

Morphed into Tommy Bowe once too. You were three hours early Eddie. Seriously, something like that is a little concerning medically. Hopefully it was just a blip or Butler has been living under a rock and doesn't know about arguably the best winger in the northern hemisphere.

 

[Peat]

I agree with your argument but I don't agree with this paragraph.
I firmly believe there is boatloads of young talent in the NH.

First off, England shouldn't be used as a flagship example of the NH, because the numbers are so different between us and the rest bar France.

Second, a close study of the last 10 years and some of the players who played international rugby and some of the alternatives will prove what I've said. All of the NH countries have had gaps in their depth chart where there wasn't sufficient quality in certain positions. The theory of how it should/could be doesn't match the reality of what has happened when it comes to young international ready talent. I stress the words international ready. Having lots of good schoolboys does nothing if they don't kick on.

Third, the Celtic countries all have pretty strict rules about how many non-qualified players can be used, and the English sides get bonus payments tied to EQP numbers, and there's usually 165 EQPs playing every weekend in the Premiership, so I think there's sufficient space for young players to make their case. Plenty of examples of players getting starts very early (particularly in Wales actually, who've probably handed out more international debuts to teenagers this decade than anyone else) too. I don't think game time is the issue.

But that's somewhat moot compared to the problem facing Gatland (and that's dogged most NH coaches in recent times) which is where's the players. If the Welsh props were all four years older and had already served their apprenticeship, they would be in a far stronger position. Ditto not having a top class international lock under the age of 30. Ditto having a fly-half fit to lace Stephen Jones' boots.