[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: Scotland vs Wales (25/02/2017)

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree with your argument but I don't agree with this paragraph.
I firmly believe there is boatloads of young talent in the NH.
England has a vast catchment and I have seen schoolboy rugby here that showcases young players of real quality, initiative and talent.
For my part as an extension of the Brexit vote the ERU should put a limit of two non British starting players in the first XV and two that can start from the bench. This should be instituted beyond premiership level.
Give some space for the homegrown talent to burgeon and you will see very quickly that England in particular, but also the other home nations, have quality younger talent coming through.
It's how that young talent is treated.
Itoje isn't a one off.

The ERU? Do you mean the RFU. We invented the sport so get original naming rights.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

De Rebus Gallionibus:

If Wales are rebuilding they are going about it strangely. Rebuilding is when you really start from scratch, are ready to engage in an honest and realistic evaluation of your gameplan and players across the board. It also needs a level of recognition from coaches and ideally higher up that change is needed. In terms of coaches it usually doesnt happen that an incumbent suddenly decides to change things dramatically - rather it usually has to happen with a new regime.And with Howley we have a weaker implementation of the things which were good under Gatland and only a half-hearted attempt to change. I don't see in Wales much honest evaluation of where things stand. They are currently in the stage of trying the same things each week hoping that things will suddenly be ok. It's the phase of individual scapegoating of wider problems. As Peat said, the "x isn't good enough, better try player Y" can and will go on to infinity if a healthy system isn't in place. It can be very justified, as in the case of Justin Tipuric, but it can also be a distraction from team wide issues and also be plainly disappointing when that player isn't able to solve his team's problems. When that happens you are putting those new players brought in under a great deal of pressure to solve problems beyond them. That's why Wales can't just start Davies, Parry and Giles next week to rectify everything - it puts too much on those guys.

I don't want to be too harsh but I think psychologically Wales can't accept that not all their players can and will be world class. God knows England have and have had more than their share of average players over the last few years. I think the need to feel like world class players like Adam Jones, Stephen Jones in his day etc are being replaced like for like holds back from an honest assessment. I think it also leads to the culture of loyalty which is a problem, as I think it was with Lancaster. It doesn't help to stick with misfiring players and Wales under gatland and howley have always been slow to change things not working. It leads to a delay in those players getting better and in new players having a chance. They then only really get a chance when a crisis hits which is too late.

Loyalty mixed with gatlands overseas rule leads to some average players getting more caps than perhaps they should. Much Welsh talent is currently overseas and poorly utilised if utilised at all. The likes of hook and peel were discarded before their time was done and the likes of Charteris, Roberts and Hibbard have ended up on the outside a bit. Not to harp on too much but I can't think of any other reason why Jake ball is always preferred over Charteris who offers a lot more.

There also doesn't appear to be much squad discipline. This contradiction of AWJ, and the constant appealing to officials which is just a distraction. But the interviews done by the likes of Webb after England and also just how touchy AWJ has been just shows how divided this squad is. I don't think change or perhaps even revolution is far off at all. But right now Wales are not rebuilding and if Wales believe otherwise they will only end up delaying real change even more.

 

[Bluemoon]

How would you know? The Welsh management won't let them through! Look at all the times Cuthbert has been selected, can you honestly say picking one of the youth would have actually done worse? This is part of the problem, the conservative aversion to trying new players for fear they will be worse than the golden generation. The changes should have started being phased in 2 years ago as Wales U20 teams for 2012 and 13 were on a high to match the seniors. As it is Wales are setting themselves up for the same crash England had after the 2003 squad retired. There is time to fix it now but leave it another 2 years without a breakthrough at U20 level and you will have aging or out of form players in the squad without any sort of replacements ready. NZ give their youth loads of caps and that's why they don't ever seem to have "rebuilding" phases, it's continuous. NH teams tend to build a team that works, run it to retirement and then try to build the next team with an interim period where the less able and uncapped players have to find their feet.

How do I know? Because there aren't many players who have cut their teeth at first team club level, let alone think about a Wales call up. I think the younger players are there as you say, the U20's play well. My argument is that the players then playing senior first team rugby at club level are currently low and therefore this idea that the Welsh management could make mass changes is a tricky one to accept. On this I can't blame the Welsh coaches, but the player pathway. I can blame the coaches for their approach with the current group of players. You keep mentioning Cuthbert, and I agree with you on this one, and that is a mistake on the coaches front. Jamie Roberts or Dan Biggar on the other hand - more difficult to argue.

I think comparing the player bases of Wales to England or even New Zealand isn't a valid approach. England can afford to make rotation with a large base of players playing first team rugby at club level. Without that, no matter how good you are at the under 20's, the step up is much harder. Wales don't have this massive player pool than England have.

VC thinks I'm talking rubbish. I must be doing something right!

 

[valley commando]

How do I know? Because there aren't many players who have cut their teeth at first team club level, let alone think about a Wales call up. I think the younger players are there as you say, the U20's play well. My argument is that the players then playing senior first team rugby at club level are currently low and therefore this idea that the Welsh management could make mass changes is a tricky one to accept. On this I can't blame the Welsh coaches, but the player pathway. I can blame the coaches for their approach with the current group of players. You keep mentioning Cuthbert, and I agree with you on this one, and that is a mistake on the coaches front. Jamie Roberts or Dan Biggar on the other hand - more difficult to argue.

I think comparing the player bases of Wales to England or even New Zealand isn't a valid approach. England can afford to make rotation with a large base of players playing first team rugby at club level. Without that, no matter how good you are at the under 20's, the step up is much harder. Wales don't have this massive player pool than England have.

VC thinks I'm talking rubbish. I must be doing something right!

This all stems from the top, Gareth (perfect hair) Davies and his Cardiff crones, It's always been easier to sack a coach who's never played for Cardiff and it would seem nigh on impossible to get rid of one who played for them, the WRUIN has long been rotten to its Cardiff core. The last idiotic mistake was screwing over the heart of Welsh rugby (the Valleys) for this ridiculous region concept they shafted us with.
Advocating Dai Young as the next coach may seem hypocritical, but then he is a valleys boy, poached by the blue and blacks like so many others were, Stephen Jones would be the ideal backs coach, keep Jinksy in place as kick coach with Jonathen Humphries in charge of the forwards.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The ERU? Do you mean the RFU. We invented the sport so get original naming rights.

Yes, please tell your ignorant and arrogant football union counterparts that. Thanks.

 

[ThebigARena]

Just watched scrum V and the thing that came out of it for me was everybody is sick to death of this Welsh management and Phil Bennett was extremely critical . It's seems blatantly obvious what Wales need to do but the management don't have the balls to go through with it. I think there has to be changed for Ireland now as the pressure from the Welsh media is now huge, Williams at full back , Steff Evans and keelan Giles on the wings , Sam Davies at 10 , north on the bench for me his form has dipped considerably, there's nothing to lose now , I want to see us experiment and see if these guys can do it at this level . Let's actually play some rugby against Ireland instead of kicking possession away constantly. The pressure is on howley now to show some balls let's see.

 

[Hendo74]

Just watched scrum V and the thing that came out of it for me was everybody is sick to death of this Welsh management and Phil Bennett was extremely critical . It's seems blatantly obvious what Wales need to do but the management don't have the balls to go through with it. I think there has to be changed for Ireland now as the pressure from the Welsh media is now huge, Williams at full back , Steff Evans and keelan Giles on the wings , Sam Davies at 10 , north on the bench for me his form has dipped considerably, there's nothing to lose now , I want to see us experiment and see if these guys can do it at this level . Let's actually play some rugby against Ireland instead of kicking possession away constantly. The pressure is on howley now to show some balls let's see.

Agreed, why not, what's he got to lose now the 6N ***le is all but gone?

I was upset after the England game but just downright CROSS after this one. How often do we massacre good opportunities? Scotland were worthy winners (congratulations) but that doesn't mean Wales couldn't have won it, e.g. if Webb had held onto JD's offload it could've changed the course of the game. I've said it before: the decision-making - and quality - in the final moments of a move seems to be poor far too often, it's like they don't know how they want to play.

As for the Webb/Biggar backchat, I'm not sure there's that much of an issue. I think Biggar just tries to get the ref on his side, and I thought 9s were meant to be annoying little so and sos anyway...?

I'd have put Sam Davies on 10 mins earlier. Within his first 2 mins he put a couple of cute passes away; with more time, who knows. Just one of many ifs and buts from this game....

The Ireland game now looks like being as immense as in 2015.....

 

[dullonien]

Firstly, huge congratulations to Scotland. It would be unfair to moan about Wales before first applauding Scotland for playing a good (not great) game, and for taking their chances. 100% deserved the margin of victory. I think this Scottish side can continue to improve (hence the 'not great' comment), and I'm excited to see what Townsend will get out of this already well coached, talented side.

Now onto Wales.....

Firstly regarding the Webb/Biggar petulance. Both really need to cut it out, it can be embarrassing on occasion. I don't think Webb is too bad, certainly doesn't back-chat like Biggar does, but it still annoys me. No need to blow the slight pullback by Webb out of proportion, those kind of things happen all the time, correct decision by the ref in awarding a penalty. Biggar on the other hand should shut-up. He had a serous problem in his early days, but I thought he'd grown out of it, but he's worse than ever now.

On whether we have young talent available to replace the current dross with. Of course we do! I don't think for one second that there won't be teething problems, or some bumps along the way, but there are players excelling at their regions who simply aren't getting a look-in! Valley Commando is 100% spot-on with his comment that changes in personnel should have been drip-fed into the team a long time ago. Our success between 2011-2013 was due to Gatland having the balls to select young/inexperienced players despite it being in the run-up to the 2011 WC. North, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau, JD, Priestland were all rewarded for their form at regional level, and they flourished on the biggest stage. However he and Howley have also shown unwillingness to replace clearly out-of form/past it players (Phillips, Lydiate, Roberts, Cuthbert, North, Priestland, Biggar, Warburton etc.) for alternatives playing far better rugby.

The key changes I think are:

Hooker: Ken Owens does have some stand-out games (e.g. England(, but is inconsistent. Baldwin has been shocking this 6 nations, and isn't first choice at his region! Dacey/Parry should be given the opportunity to show what they can offer, with Ryan Elias a longer term option.
Lock: Charteris shouldn't walk straight back into the match-day squad. Thortun is showing up well for the Ospreys, give him an opportunity.
Outside half: Sam Davies should be given a start. He made a couple of errors after coming on v Scotland, but he was tasked with overhauling a 13point deficit in 10mins, and he pushed it a bit far on occasion. I still thought Wales looked far more threatening with him there, with the variety in their play much better.
Centre: Davies has actually played some good stuff bar his costly error v England, but for me Beck should be starting at 12. Don't understand Bluemoon's comments questioning his ability to step-up, when he get's a number of games under his belt, he always stands out as one of the Pro12's best centres. He's a very rounded player, who picks superb running angles, can distribute, offload, and is physical enough to cope with international rugby. He lacks a little pace, but that isn't always an issue at 12. Worth remembering that his first touch of the ball in international rugby resulted in a try when he offloaded off the deck v Aus.
Back 3: Just give Steff Evans and Keelan Giles opportunities. And play Liam Williams at fullback. Howley's comments regarding Williams being a winger who can play fullback, and Halfpenny a fullback who can play wing, is utter garbage and imo the wrong way round.

Coaching team should obviously be changed. That's a no brainer to me. Don't want Gatland back after the Lions either!

 

[Peat]

Dull, does that mean you'd leave Ball in the squad?

If Davies can emerge as the player his ceiling suggests, that would be huge for Wales and a real game changer.

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Dull, does that mean you'd leave Ball in the squad?

If Davies can emerge as the player his ceiling suggests, that would be huge for Wales and a real game changer.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

What's happened to Halfpenny's instinctive game? We've become so used to writing him off as not an instinctively attacking player, forgetting how central he has been to creating tried both for Wales and the lions. Sure this was a few years back now but I can't put this down to age. It's something that happened under Gatland.

 

[MikeTheNative]

What's happened to Halfpenny's instinctive game? We've become so used to writing him off as not an instinctively attacking player, forgetting how central he has been to creating tried both for Wales and the lions. Sure this was a few years back now but I can't put this down to age. It's something that happened under Gatland.

I think it's been coached out of him, I reckon the backs have been told to play it safe and recycle the ball hoping to win penalties instead of attacking spaces and offloading. They are trying to play a bit more expansive style but there's still not enough variation and there is too often one player taking it up. 100% agree with Dullonien posts above regarding selection.

 

[dullonien]

Dull, does that mean you'd leave Ball in the squad?

If Davies can emerge as the player his ceiling suggests, that would be huge for Wales and a real game changer.

I'm not a massive fan of Jake Ball, he's a fine regional player, but isn't able to physically impose himself in the same way at international level. Cory Hill is nowhere near the standard required either.

We've got a real issue at lock, I rate Thortun, whilst Ashley has shown good signs, but after that we're very thin on the ground. Recent U20 locks haven't amounted to much, despite looking promising at that level, whilst Bradley Davies has regressed as a player, and Charteris is nearing the end of his career.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

What's happened to Halfpenny's instinctive game? We've become so used to writing him off as not an instinctively attacking player, forgetting how central he has been to creating tried both for Wales and the lions. Sure this was a few years back now but I can't put this down to age. It's something that happened under Gatland.

Halfpenny is horrifically overrated, since almost forever. I even rate Biggar as a better kicker. It's a travesty that Liam Williams is stuck out on the wing, so much invention, pace and elusive running. Things Halfpenny doesn't possess.

 

[valley commando]

Quote taken from Dullonien
Hooker: Ken Owens does have some stand-out games (e.g. England(, but is inconsistent. Baldwin has been shocking this 6 nations, and isn't first choice at his region! Dacey/Parry should be given the opportunity to show what they can offer, with Ryan Elias a longer term option.
Lock: Charteris shouldn't walk straight back into the match-day squad. Thortun is showing up well for the Ospreys, give him an opportunity.
Outside half: Sam Davies should be given a start. He made a couple of errors after coming on v Scotland, but he was tasked with overhauling a 13point deficit in 10mins, and he pushed it a bit far on occasion. I still thought Wales looked far more threatening with him there, with the variety in their play much better.
Centre: Davies has actually played some good stuff bar his costly error v England, but for me Beck should be starting at 12. Don't understand Bluemoon's comments questioning his ability to step-up, when he get's a number of games under his belt, he always stands out as one of the Pro12's best centres. He's a very rounded player, who picks superb running angles, can distribute, offload, and is physical enough to cope with international rugby. He lacks a little pace, but that isn't always an issue at 12. Worth remembering that his first touch of the ball in international rugby resulted in a try when he offloaded off the deck v Aus.
Back 3: Just give Steff Evans and Keelan Giles opportunities. And play Liam Williams at fullback. Howley's comments regarding Williams being a winger who can play fullback, and Halfpenny a fullback who can play wing, is utter garbage and imo the wrong way round.

Coaching team should obviously be changed. That's a no brainer to me. Don't want Gatland back after the Lions either!

Excellent post. I agree completely with your analysis, Gatland, Howley, Edwards and McBride should make way for Either Dai Young or having thought about it Steve Tandy as head coach, with a support team of Stephen Jones or Mark Jones backs/attack coach, Kierron Cunningham or Roland Philips defence as a forwards coach I would go for a soon to be retired pro such as Adam Jones or Gethin Jenkins in preference to my original choice of Jonathan Humphries.
I think we are expecting to much of Howler to make wholesale changes, his balls aren't big enough and so to implement the team changes most of us want it'll probably need to be preceded with a coaching clean out.
There is know doubt Beck deserves a start, he is the form centre in Wales now he has seems to be free of injury, I don't understand Bluemoon's stance on him, although blue and black followers are a little one eyed.

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I think it's been coached out of him, I reckon the backs have been told to play it safe and recycle the ball hoping to win penalties instead of attacking spaces and offloading. They are trying to play a bit more expansive style but there's still not enough variation and there is too often one player taking it up. 100% agree with Dullonien posts above regarding selection.

Correct, 1/2 penny is one of several players that have had instinct replaced by structure some of this in the case of 1/2p and John Fox is a result of the way clubs in France set up and to be fair Fox is feeling the benefit of Stephen Jones coaching as he appears to be returning to something like his old form.

 

[Bluemoon]

Centre: Davies has actually played some good stuff bar his costly error v England, but for me Beck should be starting at 12. Don't understand Bluemoon's comments questioning his ability to step-up, when he get's a number of games under his belt, he always stands out as one of the Pro12's best centres. He's a very rounded player, who picks superb running angles, can distribute, offload, and is physical enough to cope with international rugby. He lacks a little pace, but that isn't always an issue at 12. Worth remembering that his first touch of the ball in international rugby resulted in a try when he offloaded off the deck v Aus

Just a personal preference. I think he fits into the Ospreys system well, of course. When he played for Wales I felt he was finding the intensity of the opposition defence difficult. Think he only had 5 odd caps and then fell off the radar? My point in the post was that is he's probably the only other viable option at 12 at the moment and there is a number of positions where younger players are there but the process of advancing to first team rugby is slow, or not always possible.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just on some comments there about wanting coaches gone? Does that include Gatland?

Also I'm suprised Edwards is still about.

 

[dullonien]

Just a personal preference. I think he fits into the Ospreys system well, of course. When he played for Wales I felt he was finding the intensity of the opposition defence difficult. Think he only had 5 odd caps and then fell off the radar? My point in the post was that is he's probably the only other viable option at 12 at the moment and there is a number of positions where younger players are there but the process of advancing to first team rugby is slow, or not always possible.

He's struggled with injury after initially coping well with international rugby imo. His injury issues may well prevent him from making the step-up, as it has with the likes of Eli Walker. But if he continues injury-free (came off injured again on the weekend), he deserves a place.

Ultimately, the argument of not introducing new players because winning is important holds no water whatsoever with me (I'm not saying that is what you are doing, but it's the only excuse Howley has). It's been obvious for a while that scraping wins against poor opposition (Argentina and SA especially in the AI's) despite mediocre performances was ultimately going to end in losses. It wasn't rocket science, and because Howley has been too scared to make changes (the obvious ones being not starting Keelan Giles or Sam Davies v Japan, and not putting faith in Steff Evans v England), he's forced himself back into a corner. We have learn't nothing by selecting the same out of form players and also missed an opportunity in finding out whether some of these youngsters can cut it. It's been an absolute waste of 2 years since the WC, whereas other teams have moved on, even the hapless French!

My guess is Howley will change nothing bar maybe a token bench place for Steff Evans/Keelan Giles; we'll lose our remaining 2 matches and slip to 8th/9th in the world rankings and risk ending up in another pool of death, and we still won't have learn't a damned thing!

I'm not looking for wholesale changes, because I think there's still a lot of quality in this team. A few changes in the backline + in tactics so that we can create more and at the least actually finish off the chances we're already creating, and things would look very different.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Halfpenny is horrifically overrated, since almost forever. I even rate Biggar as a better kicker. It's a travesty that Liam Williams is stuck out on the wing, so much invention, pace and elusive running. Things Halfpenny doesn't possess.

I've thought so at various times but its still irrelevant to the point that the attacking game he did have - and whatever you can say about him now it has been there previously - is just nowhere in evidence. Look back at the lions 3rd test to see Halfpenny being completely integral to the win.

 

[dullonien]

Just on some comments there about wanting coaches gone? Does that include Gatland?

Also I'm suprised Edwards is still about.

Yes.

He's been just as bad as Howley since the last Lions tour. He's been responsible for our lack of evolution over his 9 year tenure, even after every man and his dog were crying out for more attacking creativity since Shane retired. He refused, refused, and then only after the WC did he and his team finally concede that they had to try to evolve (must have been blind, because it had been obvious for years!).

He was just as bad as Howley in picking off-form players with Phillips still picked years after his sell-by-date, and he almost drove Priestland to retirement due to continually picking him despite being completely shot of confidence and form (same that's happening now with Cuthbert).

On top of all that, Gatland has now deserted the Welsh team when they needed him most. He knew they were in the process of trying to evolve their game, yet chose to abandon his responsibilities in favor of personal ambition. Doesn't he realise by now that NZ wouldn't let him near their beloved All Blacks. They wouldn't allow a coach with such limited vision do what he's done with Wales. Look, he was great for us, just what we needed post Gareth Jenkins' disastrous reign, but his sell-by-date came and went a few years ago. Now he's undoing all the good work he did, and he'll be hated for it. Howley is getting all the flak, but Gatland is just as culpable for leaving Howley in charge, in-fact for still having Howley as part of the coaching team despite it being obvious for years that he's out of his depth, same goes for McBryde, but to a lesser extent.

I've thought so at various times but its still irrelevant to the point that the attacking game he did have - and whatever you can say about him now it has been there previously - is just nowhere in evidence. Look back at the lions 3rd test to see Halfpenny being completely integral to the win.

Agree completely. No-one would try to claim that Halfpenny was ever a hugely flair player, but thinking back to when he broke onto the scenes with Cardiff Blues and Wales, and he used to combine very well with those around him using his pace to great effect. When Cardiff Blues were playing the best attacking rugby in Europe, Halfpenny (and Roberts for that matter), were hugely influential in that attacking game. Gatland and Howley have blunted them completely. Roberts is now passed it, but Halfpenny is still capable, but imo would need to also move from Toulon in order to rediscover his mojo.

 

[munstermuffin]

Who'd be the main contenders so Dullonien?
Would Dai Young be the front runner or would a non-Welsh man come in to it