[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs Scotland (12/03/2017)

[Makos]

Moaning about England achieving this has only come about because of NZers making a huge deal out of the 18 test run legitimising them as the best side ever. It didn't, what made them the best side ever is having some of the best players ever at their best and winning them two world cups.

Now people are trying to come up with reasons England's matching that record 'doesn't count' because England are not the best side ever, which is dumb as ****. Winning sequential matches isn't supposed to make you the best side ever. No one ever said it did before the NZers started it. It's a distinct record in its own right.

Ultimately any argument along the lines of it 'not counting' is just pandering to the widely unnecessary treatment of NZ as special and to be treated differently from everyone else. and they already get enough of that.

NZ are better than everyone else, by a distance. Let that be enough for you, you *****.

You can blame the media for this record nonsense. It's really not a big deal, nobody here cares at all, I'm actually surprised it was as low as 18 in the first place. The only negative reactions you will see will be from media baiting, which your media is really good at doing, like Stephen Jones and even the BBC is crap these days.

What hurts me is that we should still be on that record run, we shouldn't have lost to Ireland in Chicago, that was a crappy loss and one I'm not happy about the teams preparation and lack of respect shown to the Irish before the match. We deservedly lost it and we've sold ourselves short of extending that record to something ridiculous.

Congratulations to England for equaling it, it's not like it's been a cake walk, a tour down under is never an easy experience. England deserve the record just as much as we do because they have beaten virtually the same opposition we have during that run. We never played England during that run and they never played us.. and if they beat Ireland to break the record, they've done something we didn't do.

Looking forward to the game, but I'm really disappointed Ireland didn't beat Wales to make this game even more worthwhile other than just a pride thing for Ireland..

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You can blame the media for this record nonsense. It's really not a big deal, nobody here cares at all, I'm actually surprised it was as low as 18 in the first place. The only negative reactions you will see will be from media baiting, which your media is really good at doing, like Stephen Jones and even the BBC is crap these days.

What hurts me is that we should still be on that record run, we shouldn't have lost to Ireland in Chicago, that was a crappy loss and one I'm not happy about the teams preparation and lack of respect shown to the Irish before the match. We deservedly lost it and we've sold ourselves short of extending that record to something ridiculous.

Congratulations to England for equaling it, it's not like it's been a cake walk, a tour down under is never an easy experience. England deserve the record just as much as we do because they have beaten virtually the same opposition we have during that run. We never played England during that run and they never played us.. and if they beat Ireland to break the record, they've done something we didn't do.

Looking forward to the game, but I'm really disappointed Ireland didn't beat Wales to make this game even more worthwhile other than just a pride thing for Ireland..

So you actually just said if we hadn't lost a game, we'd still be on a winning streak. HA

 

[Makos]

So you actually just said if we hadn't lost a game, we'd still be on a winning streak. HA

I don't really get the point in your post.

 

[ncurd]

Would you back NZ to win 3 games away in 2 weeks to Australia. I'm not entirely sure they would TBH despite beating Aus 3 times last year it wasn't quite the feat England managed.

Anyway the streak has nothing to do with being the best team of all time, I'm fairly certain the current England and NZ sides would struggle against any of either nations World Cup winning squads.

Winning games is about building a sides confidence loosing the odd game here and there can actually contribute a lot of games.

Look at the period between 1999 and 2003 England lost their fair share of games even in 2002 and a warm up game in 2003. Those loses helped shaped that side into the emphatic world cup winning side they became.

NZ players have been on the record saying the loss to England 4 years ago spurred them on.

There is no shame in losing its a nice record to have but you ask the England players which record really matters at the weekend they'll probably say the back to back grand slams.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't really get the point in your post.

I don't see the point of saying if you hadn't lost you would have won

 

[ALJ]

Isn't the reason why the comparison is lop-sided based on the idea that NZ are the best so if they'd encountered England they would likely have beaten us, whereas it's far less likely the other way around?

Not saying I agree but I think that's the driving logic.

Of course I seem to remember NZ approaching this record before and missing out at Twickenham.

NZ still the best, don't think anyone really doubts that but even they must be happy that a team is (slowly) emerging as a genuine challenger.

 

[Makos]

Would you back NZ to win 3 games away in 2 weeks to Australia. I'm not entirely sure they would TBH despite beating Aus 3 times last year it wasn't quite the feat England managed.

Did you watch the RC last year? We absolutely pasted everyone home and away. Of course we would have beaten that Aussie team 3 times in 2 weeks in Australia... They were awful!

We destroyed the Aussies in the RWC final as well.

The only teams we played after that Ireland game, was Italy, Ireland and France anyway, so yes, I believe if we won in Chicago we would still be on the run.

But we didn't, we were crap, not focused and didn't select the right team and Ireland had their tails up and were ready for it.

Lets put it this way.

If England toured New Zealand they would lose 3-0.

If we played 3 at Twickenham we would likely win 2-1 in my opinion.

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I don't see the point of saying if you hadn't lost you would have won

What's your problem?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Makos, I think the point is that there doesn't seem to be any special point All-Black fans could make re. the loss against Ireland. Of course you're not happy about the game - you lost - and of course you shouldn't have on paper - New Zealand are the best side in the world. Anyone could say that about any defeat. But look back at the game, the scoreboard wasn't massively close and you weren't particularly hard-done by on the field. All in all, you'd have to say it was just a defeat and that's all there is too it. The thing is, losing is so rare to you guys that a loss gets picked apart and people have more to say about it afterwards, which can lead to some, e,g the media, finding injustices and reason why it shouldn't have happened.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of England snatching a win in New Zealand if the stars aligned. They came close under Lancasters England, a weaker and more limited side. No way in hell they'd get more than that though.

 

[Makos]

All in all, you'd have to say it was just a defeat and that's all there is too it

That's not a winning mentality, part of the reasons why the All Blacks are as good as they are is because they identify weaknesses and seek solutions and precision.

I disagree with your mentality. There is always a reason why we lost and picking it apart and making sure it's not repeated is part of the job.

The selections that day were wrong in areas and the mental preparation for the match was abnormal, the players and team were tourists and forgot they had a rugby match to win.

They're human yes, but it was not good enough and they know that. Thankfully it spurred them on to a win in the rematch on Irish soil.

 

[ncurd]

And they call us English arrogant....

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

That's not a winning mentality, part of the reasons why the All Blacks are as good as they are is because they identify weaknesses and seek solutions and precision.

I disagree with your mentality. There is always a reason why we lost and picking it apart and making sure it's not repeated is part of the job.

The selections that day were wrong in areas and the mental preparation for the match was abnormal, the players and team were tourists and forgot they had a rugby match to win.

They're human yes, but it was not good enough and they know that. Thankfully it spurred them on to a win in the rematch on Irish soil.

I don't disagree at all with that - I believe it's the same with all top nations in terms of forensic analysis of why it happened and what went awry, and I can see that NZ will do so even more than others because the standards are so high. My point is I think your original sentence emboldened by ragerancer made it sound as though you didn't think the loss was valid. I doubt that's how you intended it. But the point is a loss for New Zealand is the same as one for anyone else - no more or less real or excusable in terms of facts or decisions which went wrong or selections which were incorrect.

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And they call us English arrogant....

Oh, we are

 

[Makos]

And they call us English arrogant....

Nothing wrong with confidence, belief and patriotism.

If I were in your shoes I would have every belief in the side as well. It's a really good England team and what's been achieved in the last 18 months is a really great record. It's going to be a big challenge for the All Blacks, but one they are relishing and looking forward to. It's moments and games like these we all love and what the All Blacks love.

I just believe our guys can win and you believe you guys can win.

It's normal.

didn't think the loss was valid

Absolutely not what I meant and I'm surprised it was even interpreted that way. I was simply lamenting the factors that lead to it and coming to terms with our own shortcomings and fleshing them out.

 

[Ospervat]

Very interesting - We may all get our wish.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...nd-could-face-blacks-twickenham-november/amp/

 

[ncurd]

Very interesting - We may all get our wish.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...nd-could-face-blacks-twickenham-november/amp/

I hope they get it sorted soonish rather than a last minuite affair so both sides can prepare properly.

I'm glad though that demand has forced the two to reenter talks though.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

If we hadn't lost a game we would have won it and still be winning.

Italy could say that every match.

 

[Scotty]

Any chance of getting back to ireland v england grandslam decider talk? Talk about playing the All Blacks when/if we beat ireland to make it 19 in a row still doesn't make us the worlds best team though...few points behind the best team in the rankings and havnt played them.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

England team I'd like to see from the remaining squad:
1. Mako
2. Hartley (c) - last game I want to see him start in an England shirt.
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Haskell
8. Binny
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly/Watson - depending on Daly's fitness
12. Farrell
13. JJ
14. Nowell
15. Brown

16. George
17. Marler
18. Sinckler
18. Hughes
20. Wood
21. Care
22. Te'o
23. Watson/Daly/May - again depending on Daly's fitness

 

[Scotty]

England team I'd like to see from the remaining squad:
1. Mako
2. Hartley (c) - last game I want to see him start in an England shirt.
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Haskell
8. Binny
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly/Watson - depending on Daly's fitness
12. Farrell
13. JJ
14. Nowell
15. Brown

16. George
17. Marler
18. Sinckler
18. Hughes
20. Wood
21. Care
22. Te'o
23. Watson/Daly/May - again depending on Daly's fitness

Agree 100%. Daly out i still dont like may not alot of other options i know i just dont like him...hes quick top end and thats it.

Agree george should be starting with TT on the bench or next season depending on form luke cowan-dickie pushing cos has so much potential and skill.

One of last games brown is the only starting option at FB need to phase in a replacement to mr angry...

 

[ALJ]

Agree 100%. Daly out i still dont like may not alot of other options i know i just dont like him...hes quick top end and thats it.

Agree george should be starting with TT on the bench or next season depending on form luke cowan-dickie pushing cos has so much potential and skill.

One of last games brown is the only starting option at FB need to phase in a replacement to mr angry...

Academic now given the side's been announced but did you really expect the captain to be dropped?

 

[Makos]

If we hadn't lost a game we would have won it and still be winning.

Italy could say that every match.

Dense way of interpreting it.