[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: Scotland vs Wales (25/02/2017)

[dullonien]

Who'd be the main contenders so Dullonien?
Would Dai Young be the front runner or would a non-Welsh man come in to it

Given the way Dai's rebuilt Wasps (before and after the money), and the style of rugby they play, he'd have to come into it. Depends on which foreign coaches were available, someone with international experience would be my preference with Young an understudy initially with the view of him taking over after a few years.

 

[munstermuffin]

Given the way Dai's rebuilt Wasps (before and after the money), and the style of rugby they play, he'd have to come into it. Depends on which foreign coaches were available, someone with international experience would be my preference with Young an understudy initially with the view of him taking over after a few years.

He's earned it in my eyes but did he leave Blues in sour note?

 

[dullonien]

He's earned it in my eyes but did he leave Blues in sour note?

Not in my opinion. His time with the Blues ran its course. It took him a long time to learn his trade, arguably getting the head role of a region too early in his coaching career, but by the end of his time at the Blues, he'd built a strong squad who were competing against the best and winning trophy's. I'd happily see him as the head honcho of Wales, but weary that without international experience, and having not translated the excellent progress he's made with Wasps into trophy's yet he'd benefit from an experienced, successful international coach to share the workload.

Whether or not he'd be willing to swap the head coaching role at a big club like Wasps who are playing well, with massive backing, for anything other than the head coaching role of Wales?

 

[ThebigARena]

Let's face it ,Leigh halfpenny is only in the team because of his kicking ability both on the tee and out of hand , apart from that he only offers s decent defensive effort but is very lack lustre with ball in hand. He plays the way gatland wanted him to, he's a bit robotic and that's what gatland likes "robots".

Liam is the creative flair we need at fb, he offers much stronger running ability with ball in hand , and an ability to read what's in front of him and act accordingly instead of being programmed to do the same thing over and over like halfpenny.

Nothing against Leigh but if we are to make strides in the right direction he needs to be dropped probably to the bench , I wouldn't start him ahead of Giles or Evans on the wing either, he'd would still be handy to have on the bench as he can cover both positions.

 

[dullonien]

Let's face it ,Leigh halfpenny is only in the team because of his kicking ability both on the tee and out of hand , apart from that he only offers s decent defensive effort but is very lack lustre with ball in hand. He plays the way gatland wanted him to, he's a bit robotic and that's what gatland likes "robots".

Liam is the creative flair we need at fb, he offers much stronger running ability with ball in hand , and an ability to read what's in front of him and act accordingly instead of being programmed to do the same thing over and over like halfpenny.

Nothing against Leigh but if we are to make strides in the right direction he needs to be dropped probably to the bench , I wouldn't start him ahead of Giles or Evans on the wing either, he'd would still be handy to have on the bench as he can cover both positions.

He earn't and cemented his place in the Wales team based on his attacking ability and all round game, nothing to do with his place kicking (other than long shots at goal). He wasn't the front-line place kicker for either the Blues or Wales until 2012.

Not saying that he deserves his spot at fullback ahead of Liam Williams, or a wing spot ahead of Keelan Giles or Steff Evans, but he's a better attacking player than he's allowed to be in this current Welsh team, as is North. If I had to chose, I'd say that starting both Giles and Steff Evans in the same back three would be too much of a gamble, and I'd retain either Halfpenny or North on one wing alongside Giles/Evans and Liam Williams.

 

[ThebigARena]

The introduction of moriarty has been the highlight for me , I think he has shown the way forward and is certainly the future , falateau as good as he is is a member of the gatland regime and Ross should keep his place from now on in if we are to progress, he is proof that we need to puts some faith in our younger talent

 

[dullonien]

The introduction of moriarty has been the highlight for me , I think he has shown the way forward and is certainly the future , falateau as good as he is is a member of the gatland regime and Ross should keep his place from now on in if we are to progress, he is proof that we need to puts some faith in our younger talent

You're talking rubbish now. Moriarty has been great filling in at 8, but he's a blindisde playing out of position. If he keeps his place (Warbs has been back close to his best at 6, whilst Tips is integral to us playing a more expansive game), then he starts at 6 alongside Tips and Faletau. Faletau is truly world class and will be one of the first names on the team-sheet once he regains full fitness.

I'm not necessarily talking about the next game v Ireland here, because Faletau isn't back to full fitness yet, but in the long term that's my view.

 

[ThebigARena]

He earn't and cemented his place in the Wales team based on his attacking ability and all round game, nothing to do with his place kicking (other than long shots at goal). He wasn't the front-line place kicker for either the Blues or Wales until 2012.

Not saying that he deserves his spot at fullback ahead of Liam Williams, or a wing spot ahead of Keelan Giles or Steff Evans, but he's a better attacking player than he's allowed to be in this current Welsh team, as is North. If I had to chose, I'd say that starting both Giles and Steff Evans in the same back three would be too much of a gamble, and I'd retain either Halfpenny or North on one wing alongside Giles/Evans and Liam Williams.

I haven't seen that "attacking ability for quite some time and since he's become this "kicking god" that's all he's done is kick ball away sometimes aimlessly downfield , although I'm not blaming him he is just playing to instruction. I agree with you that north should still retain with Evans/ Giles and Liam at fb. As I said Leigh would be a handy player to have on the bench , and both bigger and Sam are decent kickers, anyway the modern game is becoming less and less about kicking and more about scoring tries

 

[dullonien]

I haven't seen that "attacking ability for quite some time and since he's become this "kicking god" that's all he's done is kick ball away sometimes aimlessly downfield , although I'm not blaming him he is just playing to instruction. I agree with you that north should still retain with Evans/ Giles and Liam at fb. As I said Leigh would be a handy player to have on the bench , and both bigger and Sam are decent kickers, anyway the modern game is becoming less and less about kicking and more about scoring tries

Yeah I agree with all of that. As I said earlier, Halfpenny would also need to move clubs as well. He plays for Toulon like he plays for Wales, because that's what Toulon need. They have other players to attack.

 

[ThebigARena]

You're talking rubbish now. Moriarty has been great filling in at 8, but he's a blindisde playing out of position. If he keeps his place (Warbs has been back close to his best at 6, whilst Tips is integral to us playing a more expansive game), then he starts at 6 alongside Tips and Faletau. Faletau is truly world class and will be one of the first names on the team-sheet once he regains full fitness.

I'm not necessarily talking about the next game v Ireland here, because Faletau isn't back to full fitness yet, but in the long term that's my view.

Not rubbish at all, I have my views on Toby , he is a class act but he's a player that has shone under the gatland regime , I'm not sure he can be as effective for the more expansive brand of rugby we need to play , I think Ross has shown potential to be the man moving forward , just my opinion.

 

[dullonien]

Not rubbish at all, I have my views on Toby , he is a class act but he's a player that has shone under the gatland regime , I'm not sure he can be as effective for the more expansive brand of rugby we need to play , I think Ross has shown potential to be the man moving forward , just my opinion.

Arguably Moriarty fits the physical Gatland brand better than Faletau. Faletau is a great all round player who's probably better suited to playing an expansive game where his pace allows him to get around the pitch and impact the game in the wider channels. In his early days there were question marks over his hands, but he's long since corrected that.

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Faletau is easily one of our best players, Moriarty has been the find of the season this far, but his best game (v England) was due to his destructive qualities, whereas Faletau is more able to impact a game in attack.

 

[ALJ]

Not rubbish at all, I have my views on Toby , he is a class act but he's a player that has shone under the gatland regime , I'm not sure he can be as effective for the more expansive brand of rugby we need to play , I think Ross has shown potential to be the man moving forward , just my opinion.

Views are well and good but you're really proposing that you get rid of a world class 26 year old player because of his association with the coaching regime? I'd argue he is one of the key pieces in Wales implementing a more expansive game.
Moriarty is a 6 - he can play 8 but you're not getting the best from him there.

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Yeah I agree with all of that. As I said earlier, Halfpenny would also need to move clubs as well. He plays for Toulon like he plays for Wales, because that's what Toulon need. They have other players to attack.

I still don't really understand why Williams is on the wing and Halfpenny is at F/B rather than the other way round.
Halfpenny has never been the same attacking threat at FB as he was on the wing and Williams is so much more suited to FB.

I know Halfpenny is good defensively but it just doesn't make sense to me as I don't think you're getting the best from either of them right now.

 

[g6mcg]

Nice to win against Wales after so many chastening and depressing defeats over the last decade. Very uncomfortable with all the Welsh bashing earlier in the thread though.

From a Scottish perspective I was most surprised to see Scotland remain competitive despite struggling up front and with penalties, and then being able to score heavily later. I can't remember us winning convincingly, despite not playing well (and not even due to the opposition imploding or the weather!).

 

[Ospreylian]

I know I'm late, but I thought I'd have my say on the game and the state of Wales right now.

Huge congratulations to Scotland, the victory was thoroughly deserved and to be quite honest left me at a loss for words towards the end of the game. To go from a team that hasn't been taken seriously since the inception of the 6 Nations to beating Ireland and putting 20 unanswered second-half points on Wales to back that up is fantastic, not just for Scotland but for the sport in general. I think future Six Nations will hugely benefit from all of this. Scotland finally have some real star players, and I'd say (aside from Hogg who is an obvious starter) they have some serious Lions contenders in Seymour, Jones, Russell, Laidlaw, Strauss, Jonny Gray and Barclay (among others).

I don't know what to make of Wales anymore. Although the final 10 minutes against England were utterly deflating, I felt like things were finally piecing together again. The Scotland game just sent Wales spiralling down again and reverting to old form, old tactics and old attitudes. It's a pattern that seems to be repeating itself far too often these days. Our attack is yet again far too predictable, the substitutions are forced and don't make sense within the context of the game, we have players who just aren't holding up in defence and we have no set piece to speak of.

It's a frustrating place to be right now as a Wales fan. I look at the team on paper and think that this group of players are capable of so much more. Sure, there are players who just aren't on form right now, but the core of the squad has so much potential that just isn't being reached right now.

At this point, I couldn't give a damn where Wales end up in the table nor do I care where they end up in the world rankings by the end. All I want to see is some rugby. I want to see at the very least an attempt to rectify the problems that have blighted us for a good few years now. The Ireland and France games are a shot to nothing, so why can't we use them as a means to give the unlucky ignored players a chance? Howley and the rest of the coaches will want to play for pride now and to save face. I can understand that to some degree. But if we are to have any chance at competing in the 2019 World Cup change needs to set in motion from the next kick-off.

So, here is the team I would love to see against Ireland (but has not a chance of becoming reality):

1. Rob Evans
2. Kristian Dacey
3. Tomas Francis
4. Rory Thornton/James King
5. AWJ
6. Olly Cracknell
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Ross Moriarty

9. Rhys Webb
10. Sam Davies
11. Steff Evans
12. Ashley Beck
13. Scott Williams/ J Davies
14. Leigh Halfpenny/Ashton Hewitt
15. Liam Williams

Bench: N Smith, Owens, S Lee, Ball, Warburton/Faletau, Aled Davies, O Williams, North

I know Beck isn't in the squad, but I feel he desperately needs to be brought in. I was perplexed we wasn't included in the first place, as he is arguably the form centre in Wales right now. He is one of those players who just seems to be constantly overlooked regardless of form. I would have Owen Williams on the bench; there is no point in having players like him in the squad if they are never going to get a chance with Wales. We know what Biggar is capable of, but we need to show that we have the depth in every position that is vital to competing with the best teams in the world. The core of the team is fairly familiar, but newer and more in-form players desperately need to be integrated. What better moment to try it out than in two matches in which we have nothing to lose?

 

[dullonien]

Not far off what I'd want to see Ospreylian. It's possibly one or two changes too many, which would result in unfamiliarity and a hiding to nothing against a strong Irish side. Mass changes always result in disjointed performances, such as the many we've witnessed at the hands of the PI sides in past AI's.

The side I'd like to see against Ireland would be:

1. Rob Evans
2. Ken Owens
3. Samson Lee
4. Jake Ball
5. AWJ
6. Ross Moriarty/Sam Warburton
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Taulupe Faletau

9. Rhys Webb
10. Sam Davies
11. Keelan Giles/Steff Evans
12 Ashley Beck
13. Scott Williams
14. Leigh Halfpenny/George North
15. Liam Williams

Bench: Dacey, Smith, Francis, Thornton, Warburton/Moriarty, Aled Davies, O Williams, J Fox.

Won't happen, especially Beck at 12. I'd settle for Owen Williams starting at 12 as well.

 

[corny]

Does anyone know why Beck doesn't get a look in? Can't really see an obvious weakness to his game and he always looks the part whenever i see him.

 

[Maverick1987]

Does anyone know why Beck doesn't get a look in? Can't really see an obvious weakness to his game and he always looks the part whenever i see him.

He's been shown up at international level before hasn't he ? Does he really look genuinely better than Scott Williams (who I rate really highly) ? Does he play 13 ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't he almost constantly injured?

 

[MikeTheNative]

Isn't he almost constantly injured?

Yep sadly, pretty sure he come off injured on the weekend as well.

 

[dullonien]

He's been shown up at international level before hasn't he ? Does he really look genuinely better than Scott Williams (who I rate really highly) ? Does he play 13 ?

Don't remember him being shown-up at international level.

I rate Scott Williams as well, but imo Williams' distribution under pressure can be found wanting at 12, but he's very suited to 13 where there's a little more time.

This is where Beck excels, along with his running angles. Problem is that he's had more than his fair share of injuries. If he can stay injury free he'd be a valuable addition to the squad.