[2024 Six Nations] Scotland vs England - 24/02/24

[Saintjay]

Yep, I feel same far from a finished article, take away the own goals and Scotland were kept relatively at bay, OL won't be that bad again, he's proven to be far better than he was this weekend.

I think that's the issue though they are decent players. Nearly all of them are better in a club jersey. Wales, Scotland all step up from club rugby to play better. Take Cam Winnett as an example. Less 20 or so professional games and he looks more assured at this level than most of Englands backs currently.

I think what people are struggling with is how we can look so dire when club form is totally different. You know it's bad when people feel the top prem teams would probably perform better against Scotland/Wales.

 

[Jimbo]

I think that's the issue though they are decent players. Nearly all of them are better in a club jersey. Wales, Scotland all step up from club rugby to play better. Take Cam Winnett as an example. Less 20 or so professional games and he looks more assured at this level than most of Englands backs currently.

I think what people are struggling with is how we can look so dire when club form is totally different. You know it's bad when people feel the top prem teams would probably perform better against Scotland/Wales.

They are fair points I just really dislike how consistently negative some get, now OF isn't available to blame it terms to Daly and Ford, the media and fans should be trying to rejuvenate players not kick them whilst they are down, some criticism on Ford I can get but generally think Daly (yc aside) has been pretty good considering how little ball and areas he's got it, sure an out and out winger with genuine pace might cause a few more issues but wouldn't have that boot and may not run the line he did that was a big part of Englands opening try. There are lots of complaints about England not playing, yet when they do and it doesn't work they are heavily criticised maybe the wait of a nation and negativity is feeding into it to some extent, cycle of negativity has to end somewhere can that only be when England get wins in a manner most are happy with?

 

[Which Tyler]

Ford has been throwing it either mile ahead, their shins or heads

He's been spending too much time with Ben Youngs

 

[TommiG88]

They are fair points I just really dislike how consistently negative some get, now OF isn't available to blame it terms to Daly and Ford, the media and fans should be trying to rejuvenate players not kick them whilst they are down, some criticism on Ford I can get but generally think Daly (yc aside) has been pretty good considering how little ball and areas he's got it, sure an out and out winger with genuine pace might cause a few more issues but wouldn't have that boot and may not run the line he did that was a big part of Englands opening try. There are lots of complaints about England not playing, yet when they do and it doesn't work they are heavily criticised maybe the wait of a nation and negativity is feeding into it to some extent, cycle of negativity has to end somewhere can that only be when England get wins in a manner most are happy with?

I can see where you're coming from, but looking at it from another angle.

Daly has been ok, he had his moments of positive intervention. I feel supporters would prefer that a younger prospect was given a chance over Daly. A winger isn't usually judged by their boot? Come to think of it, he's barely kicked in the last 3 games. Ford seems to have lost his instinct to play flat to the line. He stands deeper and there is certainly a thought to kick first.

I honestly think most of the ire has been directed at the coaching and the RFU, certainly where mine is directed. Emotions run high during games, but not many have insulted or slammed any of the players after the game.

At the weekend, outside of the first 15mins, the team were lost, there was little structure and we didn't know how we wanted to play. We lacked energy in the backs, they didn't know where to be when we had quick ball. The few passes into touch proved that the players were just guessing / hoping that something would happen.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

In fairness to Daly he hasn't played badly but what I mostly dislike is what his continued selection implies. While he's being picked over players like Feyi-Waboso it means we're clearly still primarily looking for our wingers to kick and/or chase rather than actually be attacking weapons. And I think we all agree that we're pretty sick of the kick chase.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

In fairness to Daly he hasn't played badly but what I mostly dislike is what his continued selection implies. While he's being picked over players like Feyi-Waboso it means we're clearly still primarily looking for our wingers to kick and/or chase rather than actually be attacking weapons. And I think we all agree that we're pretty sick of the kick chase.

A million times this. Plus, for me, when the young tyros like IFW, CCS, Dan or Martin are given minutes they're immediately noticable - in a good way - rather than being anonymous/flat at best like Roots, Daly or Chessum* have been.

 

[Jimbo]

I can see where you're coming from, but looking at it from another angle.

Daly has been ok, he had his moments of positive intervention. I feel supporters would prefer that a younger prospect was given a chance over Daly. A winger isn't usually judged by their boot? Come to think of it, he's barely kicked in the last 3 games. Ford seems to have lost his instinct to play flat to the line. He stands deeper and there is certainly a thought to kick first.

I honestly think most of the ire has been directed at the coaching and the RFU, certainly where mine is directed. Emotions run high during games, but not many have insulted or slammed any of the players after the game.

At the weekend, outside of the first 15mins, the team were lost, there was little structure and we didn't know how we wanted to play. We lacked energy in the backs, they didn't know where to be when we had quick ball. The few passes into touch proved that the players were just guessing / hoping that something would happen.

Lowe seems pretty heavily relied on for his boot, Hansen ball playing, in the right side with the correct tactics Daily's offers that an a lot of utility so I do get his selection although maybe could be on the bench a bit more, balancing new and older players is a balancing act, picking purely youngsters didn't go so well for Australia in the WC so maybe part of having Ford and Daly is experience, attack wise it did fall apart after the first quarter but nothing was sticking and having a centre who on the day couldn't get anything right but was expected to fix a lack lustre back line was never going to help there, just a bad day at the office for OL, all I am saying is that this constant negative cycle doesn't help anyone. Just think there was a lot more positives to take than we have had recently.

 

[Crash Hamster]

They are fair points I just really dislike how consistently negative some get, now OF isn't available to blame it terms to Daly and Ford, the media and fans should be trying to rejuvenate players not kick them whilst they are down, some criticism on Ford I can get but generally think Daly (yc aside) has been pretty good considering how little ball and areas he's got it, sure an out and out winger with genuine pace might cause a few more issues but wouldn't have that boot and may not run the line he did that was a big part of Englands opening try. There are lots of complaints about England not playing, yet when they do and it doesn't work they are heavily criticised maybe the wait of a nation and negativity is feeding into it to some extent, cycle of negativity has to end somewhere can that only be when England get wins in a manner most are happy with?

That was a training ground move; anyone wearing Daly's shirt would have run the same line; they'd been practising for a fortnight.

Largely, Daly hasn't been too bad, but there are other wingers who would do 'mazy and pacy' better and not be lacking in comparison on kick-chase, defensive positioning and under the high ball.

It just screams 'lack of ambition' from Slow Ballkick.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The days of Daly being a reliable big boot are long behind us

 

[Jimbo]

That was a training ground move; anyone wearing Daly's shirt would have run the same line; they'd been practising for a fortnight.

Largely, Daly hasn't been too bad, but there are other wingers who would do 'mazy and pacy' better and not be lacking in comparison on kick-chase, defensive positioning and under the high ball.

It just screams 'lack of ambition' from Slow Ballkick.

This is case in point, because it's Daly it can't be good or well done, it's an automatic given in your eyes. There probably are better options I just don't think he is the problem you are making him out to be, I'd personally love to see Daly and Ford not get included, then if there's no improvement who are you putting next on the firing line, must be someone who's been around a while Itoje, JG, Cole, Marler?

 

[Which Tyler]

I've seen Lawrence play 12 for Bath

the Bath (13 at) 12

You guys do realise that Bath have played more than 1 match in the last 2 years, yeah?

 

[Crash Hamster]

This is case in point, because it's Daly it can't be good or well done, it's an automatic given in your eyes. There probably are better options I just don't think he is the problem you are making him out to be, I'd personally love to see Daly and Ford not get included, then if there's no improvement who are you putting next on the firing line, must be someone who's been around a while Itoje, JG, Cole, Marler?

Entirely not so.

It was well done.

By everyone in the move, including Lawrence.

It was off the training pitch

I'm absolutely sure that England A could have run exactly the same move with the back line which they put out against Portugal.

It would be well done by them too.

Running an excellent first phase move is to be expected from very talented (let's say Prem and above) players.

You seem to think I'm falling into the "players are either **** or brilliant" trap and I've not done that since I was about 13. Daly is very talented, has lost some pace and trickiness of running and is not an outstanding defender or high ball exponent. I'd cite the line IFW ran for his try while both wingers stood outside him down the blindside; we have players who are more instinctive finishers and that's what we need.

Tl;dr: we're violently agreeing.

 

[BPM]

I think everyone might be a bit too doom and gloom after this game.

We scored two good trys.
Some of the kicking was actually pretty good.
The penalty count was low.
VDM was gifted two trys.

Sure there was a lot to be desired like the passing and catching. But it did feel like there was actual positives out of this one. Unlike many many other England losses.

I feel pretty depressed by where we are, but I am struggling to see what has really changed since the pre-game chat?

Most, if not everyone (posters and pundits) had the Scots as favourites and expected them to win. They did and now there's a collective meltdown which I don't fully understand.

On this occasion, I'm more annoyed by the players than I am with Borthwick. For the first 20, we looked quite good and we looked pretty well drilled.

When the wheels fell off, it went progressively downhill and not one player took the game by the scruff of the neck. The knock-ons and myriad of crappy errors were unforgivable and we just gifted so much to Scotland. We can say the players are over coached, but truthfully, that's a poor excuse for skilled professionals.

Where I am critical of Borthwick is WTF happened at half time? We were 4 points down and (at that point) could have felt justifiably disappointed to be behind. Surely, we should have been coming out fighting knowing that a try or even a penalty could have shifted momentum back in our favour. The fact that neither the coach or the on field leaders can inspire this group is a big concern.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Struggling to see any on-field leaders (not including cheerleaders like Earl or Itoje), whether or not there's an extra letter by their name on the team sheet.

It does feel like we've swung a bit too far the other way in trading out Farrell for George, and I'm not sure who would be able to fix that. Curry is possibly a much bigger loss than "just" our best back row. Slade and Ford should be bossing things in the backs more as they do - or at least have before - for their clubs but they're both a bit hopeless right now.

In the forwards... ?

 

[BPM]

The thing is, it doesn't even need to be a big name. Not that long ago we had guys like Mark Wilson stepping up in that sense. I remember reading something about him when we beat Ireland in Dublin literally loving the fight. That's what we need - not this passive capitulation.

 

[Saintjay]

The thing is, it doesn't even need to be a big name. Not that long ago we had guys like Mark Wilson stepping up in that sense. I remember reading something about him when we beat Ireland in Dublin literally loving the fight. That's what we need - not this passive capitulation.

I thought the Ludlam was similar for England but that ships sailed.

 

[Which Tyler]

Are you saying we need Charlie Ewels?
Please don't say that we need Charlie Ewels.

 

[Zed]

I think everyone might be a bit too doom and gloom after this game.

We scored two good trys.
Some of the kicking was actually pretty good.
The penalty count was low.
VDM was gifted two trys.

Sure there was a lot to be desired like the passing and catching. But it did feel like there was actual positives out of this one. Unlike many many other England losses.

I think England fans want progress, some light at the end of the tunnel. England could and should have beaten Scotland and I know England are playing Ireland at home, but if they played them in Ireland, they'd go down by 30-40 points. Glimpses of good rugby, a few decent tries isn't progress. Playing NZ in NZ they'd get done by 40+ points. And nothing looks like changing. A few new players and a bit of tweaking of the game plan isn't going to turn around a 30 point hiding. If they want to be able to compete with the top sides in the world, they need a complete restructure, starting at grass roots. Re top level, they can start by halfing the amount of games the pros are playing. I'd guesstimate an Australia international player would play 10-12 Super games and 10 international games in one year, so 20-25 games. Some of them may play a few games for local clubs once the Super season has finished, but that's it. I'd imagine UK players are playing almost double that?

 

[Which Tyler]

I think England fans want progress, some light at the end of the tunnel. England could and should have beaten Scotland and I know England are playing Ireland at home, but if they played them in Ireland, they'd go down by 30-40 points. Glimpses of good rugby, a few decent tries isn't progress. Playing NZ in NZ they'd get done by 40+ points. And nothing looks like changing. A few new players and a bit of tweaking of the game plan isn't going to turn around a 30 point hiding. If they want to be able to compete with the top sides in the world, they need a complete restructure, starting at grass roots. Re top level, they can start by halfing the amount of games the pros are playing. I'd guesstimate an Australia international player would play 10-12 Super games and 10 international games in one year, so 20-25 games. Some of them may play a few games for local clubs once the Super season has finished, but that's it. I'd imagine UK players are playing almost double that?

Why "should" have beaten Scotland? they're a better team than us, and a much more cohesive team, accustomed to playing together and the current gameplan.
We already have significantly reduced the game time for the pros (that was a valid NH "excuse" 15-20 years ago, much less valid 5-10 years ago, simply not valid the last couple of years).
Holding up what Australia do as being the admirable target for... anything in rugby, is frankly bizarre.

 

[Reiser99]

It is an interesting question. Does playing better in some areas, but worse in others each week constitute progress?

I always get annoyed when a player in any sport has one good game and the commentators say they are back in form. Form for me is about consistency. Anyone can have a good game now and again *cough* Ben Young *cough*.

If England kept up the improvements week to week then fine, but it seems like whatever improves comes at the expense of something else. Last week wide defence was an issue. It was better this week. However, instead Scotland found room down the middle instead.

It's the same with the players. None of them really are playing with any kind of consistency that you could call an improvement.