[2024 Six Nations] Ireland vs Scotland - 16/03/24

[Booboobang]

Is there any room to improve with the current resources?
Scotland have 2 teams where they can grow their own players, and they don't limit selection to "play on Scotland to play for Scotland" so they select the very best players available to them.
Man for man, how many Scottish players make the Irish, French or English teams?

I think Cotter returned respectability, Townsend has installed some expectations, but the 15 has areas of frank weakness, let alone the 23 or the injury replacements.
Scotland are beating the teams they should beat, and occasionally beating teams who ought to bee better than them, whilst mostly keeping things respectable against top opposition.

For me, Scotland are currently hitting above their level, in terms of talent across the 23 (or more realistically, 36) players.

Ireland have shown that it can be done with lesser resources than an England or France (or South Africa or New Zealand), but Ireland are absolutely maximising their talent, identification and development of future talent, whilst having way more resources than the SRU.

IMO, for Scotland to improve from here, it's that youth identification and development that needs the investment, including somewhere to play (2 pro teams just isn't enough, but there's not really anywhere to add a 3rd).
Improve the level of rugby below the best dozen or so players, and have a rising tide lifting all boats.
Of course, and IRFU style governmental assistance would help s well (IIRC not specifically IRFU, but Irish sporting bodies).

I think thats the real worry, tbh, they are good now, I tend to agree that the major issue is depth. But their U20 development is actually awful and has been underfunded and looked over for years. Not careful then after this generation ages out, with project player rules being tightened, and they could see themselves as yearly wooden spoon holders with italy just now reaping somewhat of the promise of youth investment.

 

[munstermuffin]

Fair play Scotland - didn't roll over regardless of the pressure. Poor game though overall.

Don't fancy Ireland's chances in SA.

No but it is about rebuilding again. Like not the same pressure as pre RWC winning a series in NZ. Player development more key

 

[Reiser99]

I think thats the real worry, tbh, they are good now, I tend to agree that the major issue is depth. But their U20 development is actually awful and has been underfunded and looked over for years. Not careful then after this generation ages out, with project player rules being tightened, and they could see themselves as yearly wooden spoon holders with Wales.

FTFY

 

[Booboobang]

For 8 years?

You havent beat England every year for 8 years, my man. Thats 3/4 years, where yes england have been pretty bad. 4 years before that are 2-1 for england on victories.

 

[Booboobang]

FTFY

Thank you! True, wales with that board are looking to be in a rough rough position for years. My point was more that the team who had been propping up the table now looks to be on their way to being respectable after years of youth development.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

(IIRC not specifically IRFU, but Irish sporting bodies).

If you're primary income in Ireland is from playing sport (paid by an Irish incorporated body) you have an declare PAYE exemptions for 10 years. There's no losers considering we don't pay top class soccer salaries here, the top rugby salary will be the highest paid person.

 

[Which Tyler]

If you're primary income in Ireland is from playing sport (paid by an Irish incorporated body) you have an declare PAYE exemptions for 10 years. There's no losers considering we don't pay top class soccer salaries here, the top rugby salary will be the highest paid person.

Thank you. Thats the one I was thinking of, but couldnt remember / didnt know the details.

it sure helps with keeping talent in the system, as does the top-down mamagement (though there are still, of course, issues there)

 

[Amiga500]

Congratulations Ireland best team in the tournament. It does feel this year a bit of a case of being the best of a bad bunch. I'm not sure how they'll go in SA but it will be a much better indication of where they are-I think they've maybe dropped off a bit overall tbh.

Yeah, kinda feels like the first 3 games have flattered us a bit.

Last two games we've really struggled to generate go forward - Doris' footwork has become a stutter pre contact rather than an actual shift of direction.

 

[munstermuffin]

Is there any room to improve with the current resources?
Scotland have 2 teams where they can grow their own players, and they don't limit selection to "play on Scotland to play for Scotland" so they select the very best players available to them.
Man for man, how many Scottish players make the Irish, French or English teams?

I think Cotter returned respectability, Townsend has installed some expectations, but the 15 has areas of frank weakness, let alone the 23 or the injury replacements.
Scotland are beating the teams they should beat, and occasionally beating teams who ought to bee better than them, whilst mostly keeping things respectable against top opposition.

For me, Scotland are currently hitting above their level, in terms of talent across the 23 (or more realistically, 36) players.

Ireland have shown that it can be done with lesser resources than an England or France (or South Africa or New Zealand), but Ireland are absolutely maximising their talent, identification and development of future talent, whilst having way more resources than the SRU.

IMO, for Scotland to improve from here, it's that youth identification and development that needs the investment, including somewhere to play (2 pro teams just isn't enough, but there's not really anywhere to add a 3rd).
Improve the level of rugby below the best dozen or so players, and have a rising tide lifting all boats.
Of course, and IRFU style governmental assistance would help s well (IIRC not specifically IRFU, but Irish sporting bodies).

There was talk of a Borders revival but that seems to have gone quiet.
Like there is no development region which is needed. Like Connacht started as a development but now as they have grown they are more complete. I think the Dragons are on similar path too

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Odd one, this year was a championship they should of had a real chance to compete but defaulted to same old scotland. Is it gregor? Maybe player depth? Front row depth isnt great I guess.

Thats what you get with Finn Russell. He will help Scotland score enough points to stay in the game but is no good at closing it out. Maybe Scotland need a boring (English) style fly half to come on for the last 10 minutes and keep Scotland in the right areas.

 

[retired9]

There was talk of a Borders revival but that seems to have gone quiet.
Like there is no development region which is needed. Like Connacht started as a development but now as they have grown they are more complete. I think the Dragons are on similar path too

There was noises about a Northern team as well.

Cotter got us out of the doldrums eventually but was very measured. Admittedly Gregor has access to players now that Vern didn't necessarily.

only caught bits of the second half but Scotland seemed to have restored a bit of respect in a game they weren't expecting to win. Ireland congratulations on a deserved championship, the last 2 games have been their toughest but they had done enough to get over the line.

 

[munstermuffin]

There was noises about a Northern team as well.

Cotter got us out of the doldrums eventually but was very measured. Admittedly Gregor has access to players now that Vern didn't necessarily.

only caught bits of the second half but Scotland seemed to have restored a bit of respect in a game they weren't expecting to win. Ireland congratulations on a deserved championship, the last 2 games have been their toughest but they had done enough to get over the line.

Don't get me wrong I'm more a critic of Gregor as I do believe the talent is there. More so this is some of the best talent Scotland have had in years. The big issue is players like Russell in England being brought back to clubs in down weeks.
But I do think a 3rd team would help hugely with the talent pool but also developing younger guys.
And I'm sure a 3rd Scottish team would be able to get a decent mix of Scottish guys on fringes with few decent Non Scots to challenge for later stages of Challenge Cup

 

[retired9]

Don't get me wrong I'm more a critic of Gregor as I do believe the talent is there. More so this is some of the best talent Scotland have had in years. The big issue is players like Russell in England being brought back to clubs in down weeks.
But I do think a 3rd team would help hugely with the talent pool but also developing younger guys.
And I'm sure a 3rd Scottish team would be able to get a decent mix of Scottish guys on fringes with few decent Non Scots to challenge for later stages of Challenge Cup

100% and even if it was a feeder team to Ed and Glas with young guys coming up through and older guys on the way back down it all helps develop players and grow the pool.

 

[ncurd]

Both teams lineouts have be shockingly not straight. Not called up though.

 

[AlRums]

Don't get me wrong I'm more a critic of Gregor as I do believe the talent is there. More so this is some of the best talent Scotland have had in years. The big issue is players like Russell in England being brought back to clubs in down weeks.
But I do think a 3rd team would help hugely with the talent pool but also developing younger guys.
And I'm sure a 3rd Scottish team would be able to get a decent mix of Scottish guys on fringes with few decent Non Scots to challenge for later stages of Challenge Cup

What was more irritating about the Russell situation was he was brought back to bath with no game scheduled. At least White played the off week for his club,that's why he was rested.

 

[munstermuffin]

What was more irritating about the Russell situation was he was brought back to bath with no game scheduled. At least White played the off week for his club,that's why he was rested.

But see Bath are paying his wages and use the extra number for preparation of future games. That is why Bath and other premiership clubs bring them back. If Russell got injured on that rest week with SRU it is Bath who are technically liable.

@retired9 that is the way it starts but eventually that 3rd team will grow it's own life and become a viable 3rd team. It may take 10 years but that why it a longterm investment

 

[Which Tyler]

But see Bath are paying his wages and use the extra number for preparation of future games. That is why Bath and other premiership clubs bring them back. If Russell got injured on that rest week with SRU it is Bath who are technically liable.

@retired9 that is the way it starts but eventually that 3rd team will grow it's own life and become a viable 3rd team. It may take 10 years but that why it a longterm investment

More to the point, Bath* release their England players to England on those weekends because the RFU pay them to.
Scotland don't want to pay, so Bath* don't want to release him and have the RFU ask "so what are we paying you for, if you're giving it away for free?"


* More specifically, PRL, so that individual clubs can hide behind their skirts.

 

[munstermuffin]

More to the point, Bath* release their England players to England on those weekends because the RFU pay them to.
Scotland don't want to pay, so Bath* don't want to release him and have the ECU ask "so what are we paying you for, if you're giving it away for free?"


* More specifically, PRL, so that individual clubs can hide behind their skirts.

Yes but there is alot to it regards insurance etc too. Also wasn't aware that it can lower salary cap declarations. But it is valid. Why should RFU pay for releases of others don't.

 

[Which Tyler]

Nothing to do with salary cap. Everything to do with the EPS agreement (the RFU's working agreement with the clubs)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Think we'll still win a game in SA. Doubt that squad will be under any illusions that they're at world class side.