Tri Nations: Wallabies - All Blacks @ Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane (27-8-2011, 10:05GMT)

[Black Heart]

So in your opinion goi out with the intention of cheating is not against the spirit of the game and fair play. Right. got that.

Don't be absurd. Of course cheating is going against fair play. If we're talking about going out the to be an intrusive, drunken moron (a.k.a. Bakkies Botha) then not only is it plain thuggery but that kind of attitude certainly goes against the spirit of the game.

However, if we're discussing cheating when it comes to the technical aspect of rugby, then you're a fool to suggest that players should hold back because overstepping the line when they can get away with it "goes against the spirit of the game."
For starters, rugby has always been about what you can and can't get away with (as the quote I mentioned implys) If you're having trouble grasping that concept then you're either not a rugby player or your incredibly thick; or perhaps both.

My point was that if you're not pulled up for a technical infringment (as far as the sport of rugby is concerned) then it might as well can be considered legal for all players until the whistle is blown - in which case you reassess your game. Every player understands this (Richie McCaw best of all) and some players are better than other at applying that logic to their game.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Don't be absurd. Of course cheating is going against fair play. If we're talking about going out the to be an intrusive, drunken moron (a.k.a. Bakkies Botha) then not only is it plain thuggery but that kind of attitude certainly goes against the spirit of the game.

However, if we're discussing cheating when it comes to the technical aspect of rugby, then you're a fool to suggest that players should hold back because overstepping the line when they can get away with it "goes against the spirit of the game."
For starters, rugby has always been about what you can and can't get away with (as the quote I mentioned implys) If you're having trouble grasping that concept then you're either not a rugby player or your incredibly thick; or perhaps both.

My point was that if you're not pulled up for a technical infringment (as far as the sport of rugby is concerned) then it might as well can be considered legal for all players until the whistle is blown - in which case you reassess your game. Every player understands this (Richie McCaw best of all) and some players are better than other at applying that logic to their game.

Sheesh, don't be so touchy, guy.

Of course Bakkies' thuggery is against the spirit of the game. LOL, why even bring it up as it has nothing to do with my post. Are you trying to rally me up because Bakkies is South African? I'd be the first one to condemn his off the ball thuggery. I've been going on about his targetting the smallest guy on the field and then being all 'super christian' on and off the field to boot for a while now on this forum. The bloody hypocrate.

What is interesting to me is your views on cheating. But I'll stop there as I'm only going to make you more upset in all probability and clearly you're not ready to call a spade a spade when it comes to some players. I don't even expect you to; so close to a RWC a little bias is a good thing IMO.

So I'll leave it at that.

 

[Black Heart]

I understand why the TMO made this call..He can only rule on what he sees.

IMO, he could be sufficiently in doubt as to whether AAC still had a hand on the ball. I see no evidence in the video to DEFINITELY conclude that AAC lost possession so completely that he no longer had a hand on the ball.

As soon as there is doubt, Law 22.15 kicks in, and then who took the ball over the line becomes irrelevant.

Yeah, I see you're point. In my view (and perhaps I'm being slightly bias, although I don't believe I am) Muliaina stripped the ball. That's my opinion.

In the few milli-seconds between 13:38 and 13:39 in that video, it appears that Coopers hand has lost contact with the ball.

 

[Black Heart]

Sheesh, don't be so touchy, guy.

Of course Bakkies' thuggery is against the spirit of the game. LOL, why even bring it up as it has nothing to do with my post. Are you trying to rally me up because Bakkies is South African? I'd be the first one to condemn his off the ball thuggery. I've been going on about his targetting the smallest guy on the field and then being all 'super christian' on and off the field to boot for a while now on this forum. The bloody hypocrate.

What is interesting to me is your views on cheating. But I'll stop there as I'm only going to make you more upset in all probability and clearly you're not ready to call a spade a spade when it comes to some players. I don't even expect you to; so close to a RWC a little bias is a good thing IMO.

You mentioned the phrases "fair play" and "the spirit of the game" and you asked the question whether I support these values getting crossed.
The thuggery card goes against both of the points certainly.
Technical "cheating" (if that's the term you want to coin) goes only against fair play and it can really only be considered cheating if you're pulled up for it.

I mentioned Botha to support the first statement - and no, I couldn't care less what you think of him.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

You mentioned the phrases "fair play" and "the spirit of the game" and where these values get crossed.
The thuggery card goes against both of the points certainly.
Technical "cheating" (if that's the term you want to coin) goes only against fair play.

I mentioned Botha to support the first statement.

Still not too sure where Bakkies and his thuggery comes in but I appreciate your saying cheating is against fair play (even if you go big circle around in saying it LOL).

My point is that we can't expect the ref to see everything so for players to go out with the aim of deliberately cheating is a a stain on the game and is against the SPIRIT of the game. That makes me naive, I know, as in a professional sport the players are probably going to look to push it BUT I do feel feel that there is a line and if it gets crossed enough the game becomes a farce. i can honestly say I've never gone about to delibarately see if I can get away with something but then I've never played pro rugby and played at wing mostly. But I do expect the same from the pro's.

 

[Black Heart]

Still not too sure where Bakkies and his thuggery comes in but I appreciate your saying cheating is against fair play (even if you go big circle around in saying it LOL).

I thought I just explained it. If you actually read what I said in the first place then you will see I was using Bakkies Botha to agree with part of what you were saying.

My point is that we can't expect the ref to see everything so for players to go out with the aim of deliberately cheating is a a stain on the game and is against the SPIRIT of the game. That makes me naive, I know, as in a professional sport the players are probably going to look to push it BUT I do feel feel that there is a line and if it gets crossed enough the game becomes a farce. i can honestly say I've never gone about to delibarately see if I can get away with something but then I've never played pro rugby. But I do expect the same from the pro's.

This is where I disagreed with you. From the earliest games of rugby, players knew they could do what they could get away with. Therefore, the spirit and history of rugby is already entrenched with organised cheating. Good players push the boundaries from time to time, great players strain them.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I thought I just explained it. If you actually read what I said in the first place then you will see I was using Bakkies Botha to agree with part of what you were saying.



This is where I disagreed with you. From the earliest games of rugby, players knew they could do what they could get away with. Therefore, the spirit and history of rugby is already entrenched with organised cheating. Good players push the boundaries from time to time, great players strain them.

Faaark, if that's the case then i hope the Boks got the memo LOL. I still don't like the idea of players standing in a circle and discussing how to best professionally try to get away with contravening the rules but I can see where you're coming from even if I don't like it.

 

[Shaggy]

I thought I just explained it. If you actually read what I said in the first place then you will see I was using Bakkies Botha to agree with part of what you were saying.



This is where I disagreed with you. From the earliest games of rugby, players knew they could do what they could get away with. Therefore, the spirit and history of rugby is already entrenched with organised cheating. Good players push the boundaries from time to time, great players strain them.

That's very true when you think about it ... William Webb Ellis picked up the ball and ran with it, which was against the rules of the game he was playing at the time, so it was therefore, cheating.

as mentioned by yourself and other, technical cheating, if you want to call it that, can be very hard to detect, and can be a marginal call anyway ... the window for a Brussow/McCaw/Pocock type turnover from a tackle situation can be very small, just as the timing of an attempted intercept can result in a player being offside sometimes, or a flat pass can go forward, or a player can find themselves offside from a chased kick or in a rushing defense ... should players stop attempting these things because they might, on occasion, be breaking the laws of the game? ... of course not

Are the officials going to get it right all of the time - no way, many rulings are subject to opinion as to whether a ruling is correct or not, and if you ask other officials, you are likely to get different answers as to what the correct ruling is.

The old adage of "play to the whistle" is what the best players do, and they will test out the officials to see how far they can go ... it's called playing to the referees interpretations

 

[Ostrayian]

.

Wow amazed the ref even blew the whistle on Richie. Totally agree with the point you are making about the fine line all opensides play and the video albeit a bit selective does demonstrate your argument perfectly and in the heat of the moment like in that example an infringement can just happen without any premeditated thought. I am perfectly fine with that. And at times when he tackles and hangs on for dear life without releasing I can also deal with that similarly.
But then you ignore all the other infringements like not being bound to the scrum properly, like in the bledisloe last year where he scored the try by breaking away long before the ball was out(he actually did it twice in a row before scoring), offside and obstructions around the ruck area and some blatant fouls falling off his feet slowing the ball down and even playing for the ball off his feet. Imho those are acts pre-meditated therefore he fits in my scope of definition what a cheat is. But he isnt the only Allblack that does it. Other serial offenders include Woodcock, Owen Franks, Thorn, and conrad smith. I had a chuckle when I saw the online article about the legalities of Quade Coopers tackles and how "apparantly" a complaint had been made to IRB about it. NZ really need to be careful what they ask for. Theres already an immense amount of pressure on the standard of reffereeing going into the cup. Should the standards improve it might just take away much of the advantage NZ have had for years but in reality i dont see much changing.
Even after my rant and years of frustration watching the allblacks get away with so much in the past, in the end you play to the refs whistle and keep going.

 

[nickdnz]

Wow amazed the ref even blew the whistle on Richie. Totally agree with the point you are making about the fine line all opensides play and the video albeit a bit selective does demonstrate your argument perfectly and in the heat of the moment like in that example an infringement can just happen without any premeditated thought. I am perfectly fine with that. And at times when he tackles and hangs on for dear life without releasing I can also deal with that similarly.
But then you ignore all the other infringements like not being bound to the scrum properly, like in the bledisloe last year where he scored the try by breaking away long before the ball was out(he actually did it twice in a row before scoring), offside and obstructions around the ruck area and some blatant fouls falling off his feet slowing the ball down and even playing for the ball off his feet. Imho those are acts pre-meditated therefore he fits in my scope of definition what a cheat is. But he isnt the only Allblack that does it. Other serial offenders include Woodcock, Owen Franks, Thorn, and conrad smith. I had a chuckle when I saw the online article about the legalities of Quade Coopers tackles and how "apparantly" a complaint had been made to IRB about it. NZ really need to be careful what they ask for. Theres already an immense amount of pressure on the standard of reffereeing going into the cup. Should the standards improve it might just take away much of the advantage NZ have had for years but in reality i dont see much changing.
Even after my rant and years of frustration watching the allblacks get away with so much in the past, in the end you play to the refs whistle and keep going.

Haha, you're my favorite type of supporter. The type who pick the All Blacks as cheats but thinks your own side is squeaky clean. I think if you take off your gold tinted glasses, you'd realize that players like David Pocock, George Smith, Phil Waugh, Rocky Elsom etc etc all are equally as guilty, but you take all your pre-bias into a match and you'll only ever see what the other team does wrong.

 

[Ostrayian]

Nah the biggest difference is the ref blows the whistle and we can never get any advantage out of cheating
I work with a lot of South Africans and they share the same frustrations. You guys know it and no amount of spin can ever convince us cheating is in actual fact clever or a proffessional foul.

 

[nickdnz]

Nah the biggest difference is the ref blows the whistle and we can never get any advantage out of cheating

Riiight. And what advantage is it to neutral referees that the All Blacks should be allowed to cheat?

 

[Ostrayian]

Riiight. And what advantage is it to neutral referees that the All Blacks should be allowed to cheat?

haha i would say its more incompetence on the refs behalf rather then a preference or a will for the AB's to have any advantage from cheating.
Cant blame him too much. The AB's execute most plays so fast with so much going on around one couldnt really expect him to be able to see all that happens but I think the linesman or assistant referees could to take a more active role and drop their tendencies to be spectators.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Riiight. And what advantage is it to neutral referees that the All Blacks should be allowed to cheat?

They won't get the boot from Paddy O and still be able to feed their kids.




LOL

I had to!

 

[nickdnz]

haha i would say its more incompetence on the refs behalf rather then a preference or a will for the AB's to have any advantage from cheating.
Cant blame him too much. The AB's execute most plays so fast with so much going on around one couldnt really expect him to be able to see all that happens but I think the linesman or assistant referees could to take a more active role and drop their tendencies to be spectators.

You've won me over. I guess the All Blacks do get away with cheating. It's a shame the referees are especially incompetent when refereeing All Blacks matches.

What I've also realized, is that the boss of all the referees, Paddy O'Brien, must have an impact on how the referees choose to referee All Blacks matches. I'm not saying they're told they can't ping McCaw, but have you noticed how referees get in the firing line when they ping the All Blacks. Stuart Dickinson in 2009, the Namibian referee in the last SA v NZ match. And when does PoB even give other referees public telling offs. He also clearly hates Fijians (see 1999). It seems obvious to me now, that clearly New Zealand can get away with cheating because of the corruption in the IRB refereeing panel.

Imagine if NZ didn't have McCaw cheating all the time and Daniel Carter and every Polynesian player that they poach, and the haka before the match. They'd be like 17th in the IRB rankings. It doesn't even matter though, cause they still choke every World Cup.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

You've won me over. I guess the All Blacks do get away with cheating. It's a shame the referees are especially incompetent when refereeing All Blacks matches.

What I've also realized, is that the boss of all the referees, Paddy O'Brien, must have an impact on how the referees choose to referee All Blacks matches. I'm not saying they're told they can't ping McCaw, but have you noticed how referees get in the firing line when they ping the All Blacks. Stuart Dickinson in 2009, the Namibian referee in the last SA v NZ match. And when does PoB even give other referees public telling offs. He also clearly hates Fijians (see 1999). It seems obvious to me now, that clearly New Zealand can get away with cheating because of the corruption in the IRB refereeing panel.

Imagine if NZ didn't have McCaw cheating all the time and Daniel Carter and every Polynesian player that they poach, and the haka before the match. They'd be like 17th in the IRB rankings. It doesn't even matter though, cause they still choke every World Cup.

LOL I get your frustration. It's just so damn fun working you guys up! Take it as a complement; tallest trees and all that.

Anyway if you want to tell the Aussies about cheating, show them the stats for scrums reset/collapsed in games where Aus play SA or NZ vs where NZ plays SA. Was something ridiculous last time I checked (havn't for this year yet). If I remember correctly the SA vs NZ matches had 8 resets and 8 collapses and the AUS matches (although more had near enough the same scrums) was 23 resets and 41 collapses!

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think one of SA's biggest disadvantages are also that we can't have a SA ref blowing our matches in tests... most of the time we're stuck with a NH ******** that doesn't interpret the rules as the SH refs especially vs. NZ because there's no top quality aussie refs...

 

[nickdnz]

I think one of SA's biggest disadvantages are also that we can't have a SA ref blowing our matches in tests... most of the time we're stuck with a NH ******** that doesn't interpret the rules as the SH refs especially vs. NZ because there's no top quality aussie refs...

I think you meant SH, however I'm sure a SA referee refereeing all South African tests probably would also offer an advantage.

 

[gingergenius]

I think one of SA's biggest disadvantages are also that we can't have a SA ref blowing our matches in tests... most of the time we're stuck with a NH ******** that doesn't interpret the rules as the SH refs especially vs. NZ because there's no top quality aussie refs...

craig joubert aside, all of the SH refs can fvck off.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think you meant SH, however I'm sure a SA referee refereeing all South African tests probably would also offer an advantage.

No I mean just SA!

NZ and Oz have the advantage of good refs from SA blowing their games: Jonathan Kaplan, Craig Joubert, Mark Lawrence, and up until recently Andre Watson. If the boks didn't play in a world cup final, it was an SA ref blowing the final since the professional era.