Tri Nations: Wallabies - Springboks @ ANZ Stadium, Sydney (23-07-2011, 11:00 GMT)

[madflyhalf]

More than the "it was obvious, but I told you so" 's and conclusions out of a second string bok side, I'm interested in what you guys think of the Wallabies' players. I couldn' watch the game, so I'd like your thought on a few things I read here and there.

- What would you be your pecking order in the locks now? Apparently Simmons did very well and Sharpie not so much.
- What about the backrowers? Is McCalman up to standard? Is Rocky back into fitness? Should Samo and Robinson be given more minutes in the 3N?
- What are the thoughts now on JOC/McCabe 12? (not in a "I told you so" mood, given that I expressed no opinion on the matter, I'm just like to see if anyone changed their mind)

Just my 2 cents...

1) Sharpe did well against Samoa, probably the standout forward, but he's 33, and Oz need to find other options, Simmons is one of the candidates (Lost!! ), and he needs space and minutes.
With Horwill started his last test in 2009, just rest Sharpe and try Reds locks combo! It worked quite well (I say "quite" because SA lineout were really poor!)... Simmons could be a good option (remember, he's 21!)

2) Rocky played well the last 40' against Samoa, he tried to do something, this time he was a great 6, solid as in attack as in defence, and a very skillful leader. Hope he could definitely find his 2010 form! Although McCalman didn't exite me... lack of impact in defence, he does well in attack trying to find space rather than hitting straight into defenders (like SA usually does), but sometimes he tackles like a flyhalf! - and I'm a flyhalf!

3) I agreed with McCabe selection and as it stands, JOC must be in the starting XV, whether he's on the wing, fb or somewhere else... I think Deans has to find a Plan C for 12 jersey, after Barnes (plan A), Giteau (plan b), he wants to try a straightner at inside centre, so good to pick McCabe... he struggled a little in attack in the first stages of the game, but later he found space and red quite well Cooper's lines! His defence has been always solid and steady.
The experiment worked!

O'Connor simply ruled everyone in front of him, as always.
ESPNScrum says 86 mt gained, in 6 runs... I counted some more mt, but anyway not bad kiddo, not bad!


About SA plan... as I wrote in an Italian forum (baseing on ESPN Scrum stats).

Quality, amount of and use of possession - The 2 halves.
K/P/R

Pienaar: 5/85/7
Steyn: 5/16/2

Genia: 6/44/10
Cooper: 10/21/10

Quite normal, big no of runs by Cooper as expected, and look at Pienaar's 85 passes... how many rucks did the SA?? Were they useful?

Just look at team stats:
Passes
AUS 118
SAF 142

Runs
AUS 92
SAF 122

It maybe points out a bigger SA possession but, on meters run

AUS 611
SAF 362

IMO this means that you really don't know what to do with the ball!

Where does lie the difference between Aus and Saf?

Meters run, by players back three and 2 halves, in brackets no. of runs

Beale 109 (11 runs)
O'Connor 86 (6 runs!!)
Ioane 89 (13 - although AUS TV said more mt)
Cooper 93 (10) - simply amazing
(Genia) 56 (10)

Aplon 86 (11)
Basson 35 (8)
Mvovo 85 (11)
Steyn 7 (2)
(Pienaar) 18 (7)

For SA many more runs, many more passes, but less quality and less meters gained! Of course you can point your first finger against a playmaker who actually doesn't make play!!
But if you look at the centres, you're gonna be shocked!

Pat McCabe and Adam Ashley-Cooper made 40mt each one, with 4 and 6 runs

Wynand Olivier and Juan De Jongh, ran... wait for it... it's really shocking.

9mt and 20mt (6 and 8 runs respectively)!

This is unacceptable! This is rubbish, especially if your game-plan is to dominate breakdown and giving front-foot ball into flyhalf hands!
This means you obviously have a flyhalf that doesn't know what to do with the ball, execpt kicking high, hoping for a bouncing miracle (because kick and chase has been done for 2 times, than there were no more pressure), but also you have a couple of centres that are ineffective!

 

[smartcooky]

As I watched on TV, I got the feeling that it totally lacked atmosphere. There didn't seem to be the "buzz" you normally associate with a test match, maybe because this Bok side was being thought of as second rate; not the real deal.

Hard to judge on TV of course.

I'd interested to hear from anyone who was at the game. Was it really like that?

 

[TRF_heineken]

so this game humbled me a bit, BUT, let me point out the following:

1. we had 3 debutants in Werner Kruger, Dean Greyling and Ashley Johnson. with Allistair Hargreaves getting his 2nd cap and his first run-on cap.

2. It was the Boks first game of the year, and they never click the first game.

3. John Smit was pathetic and was the direct cause of 2 tries for the Wallabies. the outcry here in SA for him to go to the World Cup as a non-playing Captain got more confirmation after this match, he was slow, poor hands, and didn't lead from the front. That being said i simpathise with him coz he had to have it tough with all the youngsters around him.

4. Morne Steyn is being overplayed!! he played every game last year in the Super 14 for the Bulls, then every tri-nations game, then a couple of Currie Cup Games, then every game in the year-end tour to Britain and then again every game in the super 15. he is the only Bok that hasn't been rested for a single game the last year and a bit, i blame both the bulls and PDV... this is the ideal time to give Lambie the Wunderkind some time to get in the mix.

the wallabies was all over the boks in the first half and there was quite a few disruptions for the boks with Dean Greyling going of 3 times for blood and Flip van der Merwe getting injured. in the second half with the game basically in the bag the Boks scored 14 unanswered points with Lambie, Chilliboy and Jean Deysel coming on and put some fire in the engine that wasn't there at all!

Ashley Johnson was pretty poor for his first game and let's hope it gets better from here. Hargreaves impressed me a lot as i don't rate him much, but he did well in the line-outs even though John Smit threw like girl, and he cleaned well in the ruck areas.

Kobus Wiese yesterday said in a rugby programme that it looks to him as though the boks hasn't trained upperbody strength in a long time with james o'connor ripping the ball from forwards 30 kgs heavier than him, kurtley beale cleaned at rucks like a flanker and poor old Stegman was the only one competing at the breakdown.

Overall a very poor performance by the boks and our only shining light was Ruan Pienaar. we can say all we want that this is a b or a c team, but they represent South Africa and they played like a bunch of 9 year olds from a disability school. this weekend against the All Blacks will be another long day at the office and our only hope at getting close is if the boys click, and tackle like demons.

well done Australia! the wrath of a scorned team really paid off for you guys...

 

[Gavin]

As I watched on TV, I got the feeling that it totally lacked atmosphere. There didn't seem to be the "buzz" you normally associate with a test match, maybe because this Bok side was being thought of as second rate; not the real deal.

Hard to judge on TV of course.

I'd interested to hear from anyone who was at the game. Was it really like that?

My friend at the match said the atmosphere took a while to get started, but after Australia scored their second try it definitely buzzed.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

What strikes me from madflyhalf's stats is the abismal difference between the amount of passes Pienaar made and the number of times Steyn actually touched the ball. It shows that Pienaar is just skipping Steyn as a playmaker - and it looks that the few times Steyn actually assumed the role of playmaker he was really lousy at it, as the meters/runs by the centers show.

 

[TRF_heineken]

What strikes me from madflyhalf's stats is the abismal difference between the amount of passes Pienaar made and the number of times Steyn actually touched the ball. It shows that Pienaar is just skipping Steyn as a playmaker - and it looks that the few times Steyn actually assumed the role of playmaker he was really lousy at it, as the meters/runs by the centers show.

that's not a fair statistic as Steyn was subbed in the 60th minute and cooper not. there's no stats for Lambie or Adi Jacobs that came on the second half...

 

[madflyhalf]

Lambie: 2/11/5 - 8 MR
Jacobs: 0/3/4 - 10 MR

Simple as it looks, in SA gameplan, the flyhalf is NOT a playmaker: maybe only a kicker.


Steyn+Lambie: 41
Cooper: 41


Pienaar: 97 touches
Genia: 60

With a quite fair aproximation, 42.6% of Pienaar passes went into flyhalf's hands, while this percentage arise up to 68.3% for Oz halves.

But the main point is the quality of possession that of course comes from the previous breakdown, but also it's bound to the forthcoming one.
If you don't create space, if your centres are unable to break defence for at least an half-gap, you're soon expected to lose momentum, stop gaining ground, start to lose impact and the quality crumbles into a black hole of... non-game.

 

[Logorrhea]

that's not a fair statistic

But an accurate observation. Steyn was woeful, offered no leadership and no direction. Looking like a very limited outhalf at the moment.

 

[dan-the-man]

You guys are missing simple facts. The South African gameplan is outdated, fullstop! They have not changed gameplans over the last few years, the lawsof rugby are the only things that have changed. Rugby is now a sport that favours the attacking team. This is why Smit isn't even a good leader anymore, despite the media making him out to be rugby's Messiah. His conservative leadership is a burden to any team he is part of. Look at the awesome attacking rugby the Sharks play without him! How can you watch the Sharks play so well without Smit and still say the SA teams are lost without him?

Also, the up and unders and box kicks need to stop. I don't wanna hear "if you chase them well they can be effective". That is pure garbage. No up-and-unders and no box-kicks what so ever.

Then, South African's perspective on what a good player is needs to change. Example 1: A prop that occasionally scores tries isn't then automatically an amazing prop.

2: A hooker that gives away tons of penalties should not be called an "in-your-face, physical presence" in defense. All-rounders like Moore and Mealamu would probably be nowhere if they were South African, as our coaches prefer penalty machines, supposed "leaders" and quotas/

3: The penalty thing also applies for locks and back-rowers. Stop calling the guys that get yellow-cards all the time "enforcers". They are LIABILITIES.

4. Scrum-halves that box-kick your possession away are not "tactical kickers" and "visionaries". They are idiots that rob your team of possession.

5. Fly-halves that never create any attacks, break tackles, or make playmaker passes all the while kicking up-and-unders and missing tackles are not "good, kicking fly-halves", they are untalented a#*holes that should not call themselves professional athletes.


6. Wings that never break but get the odd try when all they have to do is put the ball down are not "Super speedsters" or "Great finishers", they are retards and/or quota players that you call good because you crave the feel-good feeling of calling a quota player good.

7. Fullbacks that kick every catch they make are not "rock solid", they are too stupid and useless to do something creative, so they kick.

P.S. Ruan Pienaar is useless and is the most over-rated player of all time

 

[profitius]

P.S. Ruan Pienaar is useless and is the most over-rated player of all time

He won the Magners league player of the season I think. He looked a bit rusty alright but I think you're being a bit harsh.

 

[Gavin]

P.S. Ruan Pienaar is useless and is the most over-rated player of all time

Absolute ******... Over-rated? He is one of the best performers for Ulster. Perhaps it is because he was surrounded by useless players in a second / third string South African team and under the influence of a crazy-mad coach.

 

[smartcooky]

You guys are missing simple facts. The South African gameplan is outdated, fullstop! .........P.S. Ruan Pienaar is useless and is the most over-rated player of all time

All this comes down to the coach doesn't it?

PDV's inadequacies as a coach have been cruelly exposed, as they often are when his on-field leaders (Burger, Bakkies, Matfield etc) aren't around. They're not even on tour to help direct at training.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He plays in the NH, so in dan-the-mans books he's terrible

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Best player on the pitch for South Africa, for me, was Gio Aplon, and by a fair amount

Consistently beat defenders/made great runs and was secure under the high ball etc.
Mvovo looked decent with what little ball he had


Didn't really take notice of the SA forwards, so couldn't see who was particularly bad (or good) given their chance

 

[Darwin]

I didn't see the match

so can somebody tell me who did well for South Africa and deserves another chance to impress who was poor and has made poor use of a chance to play whilst the likes of Matfield, Botha, Brussow, Spies and Pietersen are not around

As Olyy mentioned, Aplon was the most dangerous player on the park for South Africa, and I think both Mvovo and Basson looked dangerous with the limited ball they received (though I thought they all struggled defensively, Basson in particular). Olivier was very poor, and de Jongh was not much better (though he deserves another chance). I thought Pienaar was poor, but he didn't really have good ball to work with.

Danie Rossouw was probably the pick of South Africa's forwards for me. I still think he is too slow to be playing in the loose-forwards at test level - indeed he looked far more comfortable when he moved into look when van der Merwe went off injured in the first half. He was one of the few South African forwards that was hitting all the rucks, and making some good metres with the ball in hand. Jean Deysel looked good when he came on - he consistently made is past the advantage line with ball in hand. I would assume he will start this week v the AB's (especially considering most of the locks are injured so Rossouw will likely move into lock). Ralepelle also played really well when he came on, as he added a lot of pace and enthusiasm to the Boks forwards. Kruger, Greyling, van der Merwe (before injury), Stegmann, and Kankowski were ok but not overly impressive, while Smit and Johnson were hopeless in my opinion.

 

[TRF_heineken]

@Dan-the-man, what nationality are you that you say such remarks about the springboks? I hope your not South African, as then you have no patriotic bone in your body.

we had one bad game against an in form team that won the super 15 with 4 guys in our forward pack making their run-on debut and now all of a sudden SA must change every aspect of their gameplay and their tradition? come on man, wake up!!

if history is anything to go by then just look at the past world cups, all of them was won by goal kicking, not by a running game.

box kicks are very effective if executed correctly by someone like fourie du preez.

Deon Stegman only conceded 1 penalty all game against the Aussies where in the Super 15 he has penalised at least 7 times each game for the bulls.

which other props would you have taken on tour? Brok Harris? Pat Cilliers?? please! those guys are crap!

our attacking game needs some polishing, i agree, and Wynand Olivier needs to learn how to pass, that will also help our cause. but our main problem at the moment is Defence. we were shocking! if we defended like the stormers did in the super 15, then it would have been a whole other ballgame.

 

[dan-the-man]

@Dan-the-man, what nationality are you that you say such remarks about the springboks? I hope your not South African, as then you have no patriotic bone in your body.

.

I am from South Africa and proud to admit I am completely unpatriotic. Why would I support a country that doesn't support me?

"if history is anything to go by then just look at the past world cups, all of them was won by goal kicking, not by a running game."

Idiot, I clearly said in my post that rugby has now changed. It is NOW a running sport and the RWC will NOW be won on a running game. This RWC will be different to all the others.

"box kicks are very effective if executed correctly by someone like fourie du preez."

I'm BEGGING you to go back and watch the Bulls this season. du Preez's box-kicking was the single biggest liability for the Bulls. Go back and watch all the games he played, and take not of the direct result of a box kick. PLEASE go do that! PLEASE!!!!

 

[Sam Owen]

I am from South Africa and proud to admit I am completely unpatriotic.

I couldve sworn you had an avatar before with something kiwi about it.

 

[JW.]

Box kicks are a important part of a scrumhalves game, they are important because they can relieve pressure off the team and off the flyhalf. Just look at Will Genia.

 

[stormers666]

I couldve sworn you had an avatar before with something kiwi about it.

Ja he doesn't know what's what, that one...

-666-