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All Blacks Tri-nations squad 2011

3-4 years ago people used to give me hell for saying kieran Read should be #8 for the all blacks.

I'll always remember you Larky for your loyalty to Stephen Donald. 3 years ago nearly everybody wanted Kieran Reid at 8 but Donald was another issue entirely. Even when Donald had an absolute shocker for the ABs, you still backed him. Sometimes I wonder if you are Stephen Donald, or his brother.

Anyway dont try to use your old opinions on Reid to credit your rugby credibility (like you've done on your quote above). Use Stephen Donald, stay loyal lol...
 
In 2008 first test AUS vs NZ the all blacks started Kahui ahead of conrad smith and it was pretty obvious they were worried about Conrad smith marking Mortlock on defense (turned out mortlock pulled out of the test at the last minute hehe). Smith made a couple of blunders in those aussie games. One where he made a weak attempt on Ryan Cross which ended in a try and when the all blacks destroyed Asutralia at eden park the only try aussie scored was when mortlock went straight past conrad smith to score. he also made a couple bad misses against South Africa but they didn't concede trys. One break interestingly was squashed by Kahui who was playing outside smith.

Skip to 0:32 seconds. Is this the try you are talking about? Ryan Cross's only try in the game and Conrad Smith wasn't even on the field at that stage.

Skip to 2:25 seconds. The ball was very flat, wide pass and Mortlock was running at full space and managed to get on the outside of Smith... Can happen to anybody.
 
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Cory Jane broke his thumb :mad::mad:.

So for the Friday's Test against Fiji, there won't be: Kahui, Jane, Gear, Dagg, Toeava.
Some people think Nonu will switch to the wing, with Sonny B. Williams at 12. I hope it's wrong: why Henry don't take Maitland and Ranger??!!! They have the potential, they want to play for the All Blacks. They deserve a spot.
 
Source please?

Who have they got then in terms of the back three? Zac Guildford, Mils and they need a right wing? Maybe Colin Slade and put Dan Carter at 10.
 
Source please?

Who have they got then in terms of the back three? Zac Guildford, Mils and they need a right wing? Maybe Colin Slade and put Dan Carter at 10.

Sivivatu and Ben Smith are already with the squad covering for the injuries to Gear, Dagg, and Toeava, so one of these two will start on the wing (hopefully Smith...).
 
Skip to 0:32 seconds. Is this the try you are talking about? Ryan Cross's only try in the game and Conrad Smith wasn't even on the field at that stage.

I didn't say Ryan Cross scored the try, I said a try resulted from a poor attempted tackle on Ryan Cross. Chill out, you're picking up one little point I made in a much greater argument/opinion of mine.

If you really want to argue this point on Conrads defence answer this question.

Why did the all black selectors pick Richard kahui ahead of a fully fit conrad smith to mark Mortlock in that first test (who at the time the team was selected was expected to play for Australia)?

If you really want to argue this point I'd be interested in your opinion.
 
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I didn't say Ryan Cross scored the try, I said a try resulted from a poor attempted tackle on Ryan Cross. Chill out, you're picking up one little point I made in a much greater argument/opinion of mine.

If you really want to argue this point on Conrads defence answer this question.

Why did the all black selectors pick Richard kahui ahead of a fully fit conrad smith to mark Mortlock in that first test (who at the time the team was selected was expected to play for Australia)?

If you really want to argue this point I'd be interested in your opinion.

I'm really not sure to be honest as it was three years ago. I will in reply though say that why are the All Black selectors happy for Conrad Smith to go up against Mike Tindall and Jaque Fourie who are equally as big at 105kg each? They probably just wanted to give Kahui a chance as his 2008 form was impressive and also scored a try against England in the same year on debut?
 
I don't know if anyone remembers this but I can't find a source. It was said about two years ago but Marc Lievremont said that Conrad Smith if he were to select a World XV, Conrad Smith would be the third name on the sheet after Mccaw and Carter.
 
I don't get the lack of love for Smith
Other than BOD he's the best 13 in recent years quite easily



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I'll always remember you Larky for your loyalty to Stephen Donald. 3 years ago nearly everybody wanted Kieran Reid at 8 but Donald was another issue entirely. Even when Donald had an absolute shocker for the ABs, you still backed him. Sometimes I wonder if you are Stephen Donald, or his brother.

Anyway dont try to use your old opinions on Reid to credit your rugby credibility (like you've done on your quote above). Use Stephen Donald, stay loyal lol...

I didn't post here 3 years ago I posted on another forum where everyone called for Read to be the all black 6 and I got a lot of crap for suggesting he should be 8 and Jerome Jaino should be 6 and rodney so'oialo should be dropped. I only said it because I got the same crap then as I am now about Donald.

I'm not donalds brother, I know he's not pefect and people tend to forget that I'm critical of him at times too. But I dont for a momment believe he deserves the crap that a big section of the NZ public put on him and I'm sure I compensate for that some. Yes he screwed up in hong kong but only IMO for missing that one kick at goal which would have sealed the game. I would have expected him to make after he cicked 25 from 27 in ITM cup and scored 90 odd points in like 4 games. Would Cruden or Slade have got it at the time? Honestly I very much doubt it.

As for the kick that didn't go to touch. Maybe (but not definately) it would have been a better result if it did, no-one can say for sure. Though anything that would given a quick throw in would have been just as bad or worse and yes there was loads of time left. It wouldn't have ended the game. I tend to think maybe Donald Should have Run it - but that wasn't without risk either and I dont think running from that part of the ground was part of the AB's gameplan, The aussie forwards were more hungry at the time too.

People give him such crap for missing kicks at goal like that but the reality is that Donald has about the same kicking %age for goal as carter over the same period for the All Blacks. Note carter missed his first two kicks at goal that game.

Another example is that everyone blaims donald for that loss though other players made critical mistakes in those last minutes of the game. The #1 example is that if Toeava had made his tackle on Beale or at least held in the line with the rest of the defense - Donalds kick would have worked out very well for the All Blacks - because it was after all a very long kick and it did find the ground rather than go straight to hand. Also note Brad Thron Missed a critical tackle that and one of the front rowers did as well - cant be 100% sure without having another look but I think it was John Afoa. Also that last tackle on O'Conner was pretty weak.

So yes Donald could have done better, but is he the sole reason for that loss. Most definately not. Overall honestly I think most of NZ should accept the fact that Australia were just more desperate & hungry for that game. Rather than find a goat to kill int the All Blacks acknowledge the awesome work Aussie did and that Brilliant run from Beale. It's not something us kiwi's are good at doing when it comes to rugby.

Also look at the losses to SA in 2009 and the finger pointing at Donald, no he wasn't dan carter and he didn't win the game for the AB's even though they were totally outclassed in other areas like only Dan Carter can. But during that period the All Black lineout completely and utterly failed in a major way. If only the lineout had got some equality with SA the All Blacks would have won the tri nations and it was by far the biggest issue with the AB's a the time. It saw Issac Ross booted from the AB's and hansen lost his job coaching the forwards. The real shame is it ended up being so easy to fix, Select Tom Donnelly and get Henry to help with the lineout, add a former all black's impot as well and it was all good.

Donald has been through dark times and for sure he will have some regrets. But anyone who doesn't admit that he's also done some good things for the All Blacks as well are lying to themselves.

The vast majority of his performances off the bench he's either done what he needed to do or done very well. He's played an important part of some come from behind wins over Australia in more important games than Hong Kong 2010 over the years and in Auckland 2009 vs. Australia he was the All Blacks best player on the park behind Richie McCaw. And all during a period where his main job is to study and imitate oposition 10's during the week... So Dan Carter and others get quality training.

People also need to respect the fact that Being "Dan Carters Backup" is the toughest job in NZ rugby. It forced Nick Evans overseas and it's Haunted Donald. I bet if you asked Cruden how he feels about it he wont be happy either - he got one real shot starting for the AB's in place of Carter it didn't go so well and he's been in All Blacks Limbo ever since. And right now he will be wondering what the hell he has to do to get another go after working hard to fix the aspects of his game and still being left out.

Now it's slades turn. I really hope it works out for Slade, I really do. Great head for the game and awesome skill set - but no one can say he's a proven goal kicker. He's had one good ITM cup kicking last year and the rest of the time he's only been a 50-60% kicker. And he hasn't even been kicking for canterbury in ITM cup. All I can say is fingers crossed... 4th time lucky?
 
I didn't say Ryan Cross scored the try, I said a try resulted from a poor attempted tackle on Ryan Cross. Chill out, you're picking up one little point I made in a much greater argument/opinion of mine.

If you really want to argue this point on Conrads defence answer this question.

Why did the all black selectors pick Richard kahui ahead of a fully fit conrad smith to mark Mortlock in that first test (who at the time the team was selected was expected to play for Australia)?

If you really want to argue this point I'd be interested in your opinion.

And how many times has Conrad Smith been selected over a fully fit Kahui in years since? This argument is pointless, you love the Waikato guys and favour them to the point where it gets ridiculous. Which is a shame cause the rest of your banter is pretty spot on.

Also you won't convince anyone that Donald didn't cost us that game.. missed the clinching kick, then we have knock on advantage and he kicks up the middle, advantage over and they counter attack. Should've deliberately knocked it on so we had the scrum, wasted some time then kicked it out for the win. Any other option than kick it up the middle when we were a bit all over the place on defence.. we needed a stoppage to regather a bit of composure.
 
And how many times has Conrad Smith been selected over a fully fit Kahui in years since?

Sadly Kahui hasn't been fully fit and ready for the all blacks for long enough periods since so that point is moot. And for the rest of 2008 he was moved to wing to cover a masive problem that the All Blacks had at the back.

And it's hard to compare the two at super rugby given the fact Conrad smith plays outside the best 12 (Nonu) in the world and kahui plays outside the worst 12 in NZ super Rugby 2010 (Sweeney) and in 2009 he was outside Bruce who had a totally Dirt season after being very reliable in 2009 (believe it or not I dont think all players at the chiefs are good, I think some aren't even good enough to play super rugby).

I do belive a fully fit kahui is as good a player as an equally ready Smith and the fact that Kahui is bigger, faster and has a better kicking game makes be believe that given time, less injuries and the chance to prove himself he could potentially be a better player than Conrad Smith, he is after all 3-4 years younger than conrad as well.

I dont see a point in arguing these little issues the reality is it's an opinion and enither side may never be proved right or wrong either way. I know I express many points and options in my posts and I'm really not interested in arguing over one of more than a dozen of my observations till my fingers turn blue from typing. I'm more interested in reading what people own options are though there aren't many people that will post an overall view of the NZ player hierarchy and I bet if anyone did their would be Bias an every one of them. Even the experts at the top level have Bias. Laurie Mains is obviously bias to Otago players in his writeups and selections and Craig Doud is Obviously Bias towards harbour players.

I don't favour some Waikato players just because they are from that region, it may partly be because I watch the players progress and compare them to others at the same level in more detail and I know their strengths and weaknesses better than most. I'd guess a lot of the people who blast my arguments only watch a handful of waikato/chiefs games and when they do they miss alot because they are watching their pet players. It's those people that shot me down on this forum last year when I said Kahui should be in the All Blacks and I also said he would be in good form and his average showing in super rugby meant nothing. What was s suprise to almost everyone else was pretty obvious to me.

I've been pushing the case for players like Messam, Kahui, Leonard & Donald for years and other players that aren't from the chiefs. Even before they were all blacks and people have been giving me ****. Yet all along they are constantly being selected for the all blacks. You may think I'm wrong but interestingly the guys who get paid six figures or more to do it for real seem to agree with my observations more often than not. I don't believe I've pushed a chiefs player for selection that hasn't made it and I also haven't agreed with some Chiefs all black slections that have been made. Like Latimer for example, huge player for the chiefs but when he's been selected I would have sooner picked someone like George Whitelock.

If you want an argument against kahui I'll give you a valid one. One I would respect if it cane from anyone else.

kahui's weak point is his handelling skills, he often losses the ball in contact or fails with offload attempts. He caused a lot of problems for defences from 2006 - 2009 running with the ball in two hands in front of him then in 2010 defenders found that if they attacked his arms and the ball in contact he struggles and he has obviously been working to fix the issue and adjust his game and improve his ball retention in contact. Even recently spent extra time with gordon ***chens to work on it (when he got a tight hammy).

And please understand, I never said Conrad Smith is bad player, he is great and yes there have been times over the last few years he's been the best 13 in the world - he has been critical for the All Blacks since 2008. But dont try and tell me he doesn't have any weaknesses. Plus I think he does great even though he's fairly small and not as physical as most world class 13 but don't tell me that it's never been a factor, never been taken advantage of and has never been a selection issue. And dont try and tell me that Conrad Smith hasn't benefitted at all from playing almost his entire 1st class carrier (wellington, hurricanes and AB's) paired in midfield with Either Tana Umaga or Ma'a Nonu.
 
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Pretty comprehensive explanation there mate, all points taken on board. I still don't know how you can't see Kahui is injury prone when you kind of even admit it yourself "Sadly Kahui hasn't been fully fit and ready for the all blacks for long enough periods since so that point is moot"

Smith isn't that small, 4cm and 5kg difference aren't exactly deal breakers. If Smith was Giteau's size I could see the argument.

I'd wager on Kahui picking up another injury at some point during the tri nations, please quote me if he doesn't as I'd love to be proven wrong about the guy.
 
Pretty comprehensive explanation there mate, all points taken on board. I still don't know how you can't see Kahui is injury prone when you kind of even admit it yourself "Sadly Kahui hasn't been fully fit and ready for the all blacks for long enough periods since so that point is moot"

Smith isn't that small, 4cm and 5kg difference aren't exactly deal breakers. If Smith was Giteau's size I could see the argument.

I'd wager on Kahui picking up another injury at some point during the tri nations, please quote me if he doesn't as I'd love to be proven wrong about the guy.

Thanks, and I agree Conrad's size isn't as much of an issue now as it was in 2007-2008. He has got a bit bigger and at the same time there is not the same threat with mortlock out of the picture. SA have big mid fielders but they dont get the ball much :p

It may seem silly to pick a player just to deal with one oposition but the reality is that there are very few teams out there that are a threat to the AB's australia and SA mainly. And against Australia by far their biggest threat was Mortlock.

I think you have miss quoted me though. Or I didn't get my meaning accross. I think I said if it wasn't for Kahui's sholder injuries he wouldn't be considered injury prone. Problem is Kahui has had 3 major sholder injuries which have taken him out of large chunks or rugby each time. And I link his sholder injuries directly to the fact he hits tackles harder and more often than pretty much any back in rugby, even guys who are a lot bigger than him.

He knows that if he eases back on his defence he wont have the same injury problems but he chooses to ignore that idea, maybe to his credit - people may say he's stupid not to.

he really hasn't had many injury problems outside his sholder issues. he had an ancle and a few other minor issues.

The good thing is that since he had his first sholder one I dont think that has been a problem since and his other sholder the 2nd injury wasn't the same so that's kinda a good sign for his other sholder re-construction.

I also believe he's been really badly managed as far as his injuries go.

he had an ancle injury mis diagnosed which put him out for a long peroid which if he had been managed properly would have been monir. He also played most of the 2009(?) super rugby season with a busted sholder (only able to tackle one one side, wouldn't have done his good side any good either.) and the injury eventually got so bad it rulled him out for the all blacks. When it should have been sorted right away, he should have taken time off during super rugby to get it fixed he may have been good for the end of the season and all blacks.

Interestingly during that time some other chiefs players were badly managed with injuries as well. Sivivatu was the worst, seemed to have his sholder dislocated every few weeks and rather than get it fixed he played on for the chiefs and it just got worse and worse till surgery forced him out and he missed an international season and hasn't made it back to the AB's yet.

And that wasn't long after Leonard had his knee problem. Leonard busted his Knee, had surgery, was in a moon boot for months. Then they remove his moon boot only to find the surgery was no good and he had to have more surgery and start the whole process again from scratch. I can't imagine how hard that must have been.

I also wouldn't put mony on Kahui not getting injured, though so for this year his sholders havn't been an issue, one neck strain and a monor hammy injury this season so far - most players would be happy with only that. But history is against him.

I do hope he stays injury free. I believe the All Blacks are better off with him in the picture, he just naturally seems good at test rugby. He's even better suited to test rugby than super rugby. And he has a rare ability to lift his game to a high level/intensity when needed. There are a few players around like that and they will be critical come playoffs time.

And heh yeah Giteau isn't huge, but the guy is a walking muscle. for his size and weight he has a ridiculous amount of power. One can only imagine how good some NZ players would be if they worked as hard on their fitness as matt giteau does. Ranger, Masanga, Stowers come to mind. Aussie have a few players like matt giteau that I envy in that regard.
 
I don't get the lack of love for Smith
Other than BOD he's the best 13 in recent years quite easily



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I would have loved to see a younger BOD take on Smith now. That would be an epic battle. A young BOD is just amazing, best 13 without a doubt. The problem with how he plays, which is with pace being an attacking centre, is that as you get older you lose your flair as your pace goes. Smith will only get better as he is more a defensive player and distributor who can attack pretty well. I've noticed BOD switch his style a little bit into a more defensive and distribution role like Smith.

South Africans may hate me for this but I have never rated Jaque Fourie as one of the best in the world, he is very good but I don't think he is in the same class as Smith and BOD.

 
The best four centres in my opinion, over the last decade have to be Conrad Smith, Stirling Mortlock, Brian O'Driscoll and Tana Umaga. Each offered something different. I wouldn't rate Jaque Fourie in that category.
 
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