All Blacks Tri-nations squad 2011

[smartcooky]

I know! SBW and his offloading are a bad example for the kids!

Why on earth would you think that?

I see it as a great example and something for kids to aspire to. Saw my grandson pull an SBW style back-hand offload in a school game last weekend.... (he plays No. 8 for an under 12 side). He executed it perfectly, and all but put his scrum half in under the posts.

If you have watched SBW lately, you'll he has stopped trying to offload every time, and instead is picking his time to do it, taking the tackle at other times or passing before the tackle. In other words, he is has learned that overuse of that particular skill makes him a little one-dimensional, so he is varying it to keep the opposition guessing.

ok, i see what you mean...butthen why is SBW in the team...he is also a lose caonnon at times esp those offloads sometimes :?

they might cost us.....

Well so far in 3½ tests...

Kick/Pass/Run............3/30/23
Offloads...................10 (two of which were try-assists)
Knock-ons.................0
Forward passes..........0
Penalties conceded.....1
Turnovers gained.........2
Tackles made/missed...19/3

That is not a bad effort for a test rookie!!

Mocking this guy: http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/s...s-on-rugby-field/story-e6frf4qu-1226053752406

Does anyone truly believe that PDV is anything more than a "Transformation Figurehead"?

Most observers with an ounce of commonsense will tell you that Gary Gold and Dick Muir are the "real" Springbok coaches. PDV is just a puppet; there to make dim-witted comments in order to draw attention to himself, and get opposing teams and management people talking about the outrageous crap he spouts, instead of focusing on their own stuff.

 

[Gavin]

Why on earth would you think that?

I see it as a great example and something for kids to aspire to. Saw my grandson pull an SBW style back-hand offload in a school game last weekend.... (he plays No. 8 for an under 12 side). He executed it perfectly, and all but put his scrum half in under the posts.

If you have watched SBW lately, you'll he has stopped trying to offload every time, and instead is picking his time to do it, taking the tackle at other times or passing before the tackle. In other words, he is has learned that overuse of that particular skill makes him a little one-dimensional, so he is varying it to keep the opposition guessing.

I would think ZeFrenchy was joking, or he may have been putting out some bait...

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I would think ZeFrenchy was joking, or he may have been putting out some bait...

Thank you. Probably PdV's statements don't get much press in NZ, but it was a bit of a laugh when he said that SBW was a bad example for the kids...

 

[big ginger 8]

Our coach says when your as good as him then you can do them.

That is the backhand offload not offloads in general.

 

[smartcooky]

Thank you. Probably PdV's statements don't get much press in NZ, but it was a bit of a laugh when he said that SBW was a bad example for the kids...

OK, sorry, but.... it pays use a smiley when you're joking.

Its difficult to read "tone of voice" when reading the written word.

 

[Rhyer]

OK, sorry, but.... it pays use a smiley when you're joking.

Its difficult to read "tone of voice" when reading the written word.

We desperately need a sarcasm font.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Surprise Surprise Kahui is injured again.. Out for a few weeks with a hamstring injury. May as well cut him loose and put Jane in the full squad.

 

[nickdnz]

Surprise Surprise Kahui is injured again.. Out for a few weeks with a hamstring injury. May as well cut him loose and put Jane in the full squad.

Well...kind of, yeah.

He's a great player, who's never looked bad playing for the All Blacks...

But ffs, he's always injured! He has this game to play against Fiji after a mixed Super Rugby season to show that injury hasn't stopped him being a great player, and he gets injured before the game starts! He could play for the All Blacks for the next 10 years, be the first choice centre and still only get 20 caps. I guess Cory Jane will certainly get a bench spot at least against Fiji.

 

[donmcdazzle]

It's pointless wasting training time with the guy building combinations etc when he will more than likely be injured for the majority of the time. I'd cut him for someone who is actually likely to be available.

 

[Rhyer]

Maybe Fruean will get a game?

 

[Darwin]

Well...kind of, yeah.

He's a great player, who's never looked bad playing for the All Blacks...

But ffs, he's always injured! He has this game to play against Fiji after a mixed Super Rugby season to show that injury hasn't stopped him being a great player, and he gets injured before the game starts! He could play for the All Blacks for the next 10 years, be the first choice centre and still only get 20 caps. I guess Cory Jane will certainly get a bench spot at least against Fiji.

It will be interesting to see the make-up of the back three and bench v Fiji. Given 3/5 outside backs in the main squad are out injured (Gear, Dagg, and Toeava) you would assume Guildford and Muliaina will start, with one of Ben Smith, Sivivatu, or Jane starting on the right wing. Given Ben Smith didn't play for Otago v North Harbour while Jane and Sivivatu have been named to start for Wellington and Waikato respectively it may indicate Smith is in line to start (though it may simply be the case that Smith needs a rest after playing every minute this season for the Highlanders, while Jane/Sivivatu need more rugby).

Maybe Fruean will get a game?

I doubt Fruean will be brought into the squad, as they are very unlikely to pick him in their RWC squad. If Kahui is ruled out of the RWC they would simply being in another outside back (Jane, Smith, Sivivatu) as Toeava could provide midfield cover (and Ben Smith could too if he was selected..).

 

[Larksea]

I dont think kahui's injury is a big deal. Will do him good to have an extra couple of weeks off. He had a big workload for the chiefs since his las comeback.

His injuries are a shame, I do believe if not for his sholder injuries in particular he would be the best 13 in the world.

The important thing is he will be fit to play again in a few weeks and prove he's fit before the WC squad is set in stone. I think NZ have a much better chance of winning the WC with a fit Kahui in the squad than with someone else. He always performs for the AB's and has a great head for big games and the Black Jersey.

He still has a good future. Remember conrad smith was a very average test player for years and was plagued by hamstring injuries and a broken leg. As far as test rugby goes Kahui is about as good as smith but has potential to be alot better. He's bigger, faster and has a wider range of skills than Conrad Smith.

Fruen is not ready, he's great with ball in hand but his defense is very questionable. I'd noticed it wasn't great then I was watching Reunion the other night and they showed a montage of his missed tackles. Most of them from the super final, he seems to have a habit of letting players slip even though he looks like he has them covered. Which is the worst way to miss a tackle.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Big workload? Wasn't he injured for half the season?

He is a great player but the fact is he's injury prone. Unfortunately some players just are (see Wlkinson, Jonny). He is going to be a bench player so I'm not sure why they're taking such a risk with a proven injury bag.

And saying Smith was a "very average" test player for years is a huge stretch of the imagination. If he was very average he would'nt have played as many as he has done. Also Kahui has played 11 tests (majority off the bench) to Smith's 44 so I'm not sure how you're putting them on the same level in terms of test performance. He has had a couple of very nice cameo's, but his body is never good enough to let him get in consistent string of performances together. Smith was never plagued by injuries either, evidenced by the fact he has started a whole lot of games for the AB's.

Agree regarding Fruean though, once he figures out defence he will be in the frame.

 

[Larksea]

Big workload? Wasn't he injured for half the season?

He is a great player but the fact is he's injury prone. Unfortunately some players just are (see Wlkinson, Jonny). He is going to be a bench player so I'm not sure why they're taking such a risk with a proven injury bag.

And saying Smith was a "very average" test player for years is a huge stretch of the imagination. If he was very average he would'nt have played as many as he has done. Also Kahui has played 11 tests (majority off the bench) to Smith's 44 so I'm not sure how you're putting them on the same level in terms of test performance. He has had a couple of very nice cameo's, but his body is never good enough to let him get in consistent string of performances together. Smith was never plagued by injuries either, evidenced by the fact he has started a whole lot of games for the AB's.

Agree regarding Fruean though, once he figures out defence he will be in the frame.

I think Kahui missed just the first 4-5 games then pretty much played every minute of most of the games from then on. And did to me look like he could do with a rest at the end.

Conrad smith got his chance for the AB's during a time where 13 (post Tana Umaga) was a huge weakness in NZ Rugby, looking at the 2007 squad for example 13 was I think the only position NZ didn't have a world class player when in most positions NZ had two or more world class options - which is one of the reasons Mills was used there. Conrad made his debut in 2005 I think and only really established himself in 2008. And even then there are times he looks very shakey against the bigger more physical 13's at test level.

His hamstring was a massive issue for Smith, he was constantly under a cloud with hamstring problems until 2008-09. Somtimes he would only come back for a game or two then be back out with a dodgy hammy again.

Injuries are part of the modern game. Most players more often than not spend time out during a season because of injury. The only injuries that Kahui has had that are over what most players get have been his Sholder injuries. But how many backs in NZ hit as hard as kahui on defense? Almost none, even big guys like SBW & Fruen dont hit tackles as hard as often as Kahui does. And they have ~10kg extra meat compared to Kahui. I think his injuries reflect that more than being prone.

There are a few Iron men out there that seem to never get injured. I always respected Cowans ability to keep playing through pain and avoid serious injury. Brad Thorn is another though over the last two years he has had some games off due to injury. One that really sticks out is Liam Messsam - he's bullet proof. he played every game for both the chiefs and waikato in 2007 & 2008, every minute of every game this year almost the same in 2010. I can't recall many other players like that. John Afoa's record is pretty impressive but I do remember a couple of small injury breaks.

Most other players have regular setbacks though it's funny who gets tagged as injury prone and who doesn't. People don't seem to talk much about the fact Hosea Gear has spent alot of time injured over the last few years and he's injured again now. And it's not the first time this season either. Wasn't long ago he was in a sling and now he has a leg injury.

I think it's critical both Gear and Kahui get fit and back to their best. But of the two Kahui has proved a better test player against tougher teams than Gear who's never been tried in Tri nations or tougher. And didn't really impress in hong kong.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I agree most players get injuries etc etc but Kahui is injury prone - shown by the fact he has missed a heap of games due to injury. I'm not arguing your point on him being good, he is a good player (although I'm not sure he is as big of a hitter as SBW is).

So if we agree he is a good player, and you think he has the ability to be better than Smith, what has stopped him over the past 4 years from playing more than 11 tests? Oh thats right, his constant injuries breaking up his seasons.

Neither Gear or Kahui have logged enough test minutes to do an accurate comparison as to who is better in the test arena. Kahui scored a scorcher against Wales (off the bench), Gear tore up some other NH teams on the tour but neither have played enough 3N to say who is better on the wing one way or the other.

 

[Larksea]

I agree most players get injuries etc etc but Kahui is injury prone - shown by the fact he has missed a heap of games due to injury. I'm not arguing your point on him being good, he is a good player (although I'm not sure he is as big of a hitter as SBW is).

So if we agree he is a good player, and you think he has the ability to be better than Smith, what has stopped him over the past 4 years from playing more than 11 tests? Oh thats right, his constant injuries breaking up his seasons.

Neither Gear or Kahui have logged enough test minutes to do an accurate comparison as to who is better in the test arena. Kahui scored a scorcher against Wales (off the bench), Gear tore up some other NH teams on the tour but neither have played enough 3N to say who is better on the wing one way or the other.

I think you missed my point donmcdazzle

also note that Kahui was very good in the 2008 tri nations in which he played an important role and he's looked the part pretty much every minute he's had in the all blacks. He got one chance off the bench last year vs. SA and looked the part. Gear was great on the EoY tour but I think he's had two tests against Australia and neither were very impressive.

 

[donmcdazzle]

That's great I'm not debating his ability when he is fit (although I don't quite hold him in the same regard you do), but if he is such a brilliant player, why hasn't he cemented a spot in the AB's? The answer is injuries.

 

[nickdnz]

His injuries are a shame, I do believe if not for his sholder injuries in particular he would be the best 13 in the world.

The important thing is he will be fit to play again in a few weeks and prove he's fit before the WC squad is set in stone. I think NZ have a much better chance of winning the WC with a fit Kahui in the squad than with someone else. He always performs for the AB's and has a great head for big games and the Black Jersey.

He still has a good future. Remember conrad smith was a very average test player for years and was plagued by hamstring injuries and a broken leg. As far as test rugby goes Kahui is about as good as smith but has potential to be alot better. He's bigger, faster and has a wider range of skills than Conrad Smith.

I think Kahui missed just the first 4-5 games then pretty much played every minute of most of the games from then on. And did to me look like he could do with a rest at the end.

Conrad smith got his chance for the AB's during a time where 13 (post Tana Umaga) was a huge weakness in NZ Rugby, looking at the 2007 squad for example 13 was I think the only position NZ didn't have a world class player when in most positions NZ had two or more world class options - which is one of the reasons Mills was used there. Conrad made his debut in 2005 I think and only really established himself in 2008. And even then there are times he looks very shakey against the bigger more physical 13's at test level.

His hamstring was a massive issue for Smith, he was constantly under a cloud with hamstring problems until 2008-09. Somtimes he would only come back for a game or two then be back out with a dodgy hammy again.

Injuries are part of the modern game. Most players more often than not spend time out during a season because of injury. The only injuries that Kahui has had that are over what most players get have been his Sholder injuries. But how many backs in NZ hit as hard as kahui on defense? Almost none, even big guys like SBW & Fruen dont hit tackles as hard as often as Kahui does. And they have ~10kg extra meat compared to Kahui. I think his injuries reflect that more than being prone.

There are a few Iron men out there that seem to never get injured. I always respected Cowans ability to keep playing through pain and avoid serious injury. Brad Thorn is another though over the last two years he has had some games off due to injury. One that really sticks out is Liam Messsam - he's bullet proof. he played every game for both the chiefs and waikato in 2007 & 2008, every minute of every game this year almost the same in 2010. I can't recall many other players like that. John Afoa's record is pretty impressive but I do remember a couple of small injury breaks.

Most other players have regular setbacks though it's funny who gets tagged as injury prone and who doesn't. People don't seem to talk much about the fact Hosea Gear has spent alot of time injured over the last few years and he's injured again now. And it's not the first time this season either. Wasn't long ago he was in a sling and now he has a leg injury.

I think it's critical both Gear and Kahui get fit and back to their best. But of the two Kahui has proved a better test player against tougher teams than Gear who's never been tried in Tri nations or tougher. And didn't really impress in hong kong.

Man, it's always so frustrating reading your posts, when you write with you Chiefs hat on. I think you are wrong on all of this. How has Kahui proved better than Gear at test level? Yes he has played against Tri Nations teams, but the games has has really stunned is against the same teams as Gear. His debut against England, he looked good scoring a try, his next two tries were against Samoa (a game which Smith also scored two tries) the following Tri Nations he didn't score any tries and was used spearingly as well as with injuries. His fourth try would be scored against Scotland in 2008 EOYT (his only try on the tour). His next try would be almost two years later, against Wales. Gear on the other hand has scored just as many tries (0) as Kahui against Tri Nations opponents, however he has scored as many tries as Kahui and looked equally impressive. Gear didn't impress in Hong Kong, because no back impressed in Hong Kong. It was a slow game with saw only two tries to each team and Gear got very little ball and none of it in space. He made one try saving tackle however.

Saying Kahui is as good as Smith is plain wrong. You say he has trouble against physical opponents, but that is total rubbish. Smith is by far and away the best defensive player around, and I challenge you to find a time in the last three years he has been pushed around by a big centre. It seems wild guess work at best.

I agree with a lot of things you say when you evalute players but there is no doubting how much of a one sided Chiefs fan you are. In your current All Blacks squad I have no doubt you would have Leonard, Donald, Elliot, Kahui, Messam, Muliaina, Sivivatu in the 22 for every game. It's so frustrating.

 

[Larksea]

jeez! calm down nick or I'll have to contact a moderator!

honestly, I'm not as bad with chiefs players as you believe. I'd defend Boric in the same way as well as other players around that aren't from the chiefs and Sivivatu is out of my good books right now. I think I'd rather see Rokocoko in the AB's. 3-4 years ago people used to give me hell for saying kieran Read should be #8 for the all blacks.

I do believe Smith has a weakness against some of the bigger mid fielders around. Examples:

In 2008 first test AUS vs NZ the all blacks started Kahui ahead of conrad smith and it was pretty obvious they were worried about Conrad smith marking Mortlock on defense (turned out mortlock pulled out of the test at the last minute hehe). Smith made a couple of blunders in those aussie games. One where he made a weak attempt on Ryan Cross which ended in a try and when the all blacks destroyed Asutralia at eden park the only try aussie scored was when mortlock went straight past conrad smith to score. he also made a couple bad misses against South Africa but they didn't concede trys. One break interestingly was squashed by Kahui who was playing outside smith.

I'm honestly a lot happier now Aussie in particular haven't had a mid fielder like mortlock since then to line up against conrad smith. Smith is a good defender, very good but he does have a weakness.

On Gear, he is a very good player and when he's on form I'm sure he puts fear in oposition defences. But the reality is he hasn't proved himself against SA or AUSSIE yet which is obviously important and he's shown even at super level he is not strong on defense in some areas. When he is tested I expect to see a lot of kicks go in behind him.

Also you make it sound like trys are all that matter. Fact is at test level, and even more importantly in world cups other areas are more important. I think Kahui's main strength for the All Blacks has been his defense and his low error rate, his ability under the high ball and his kicking game. And he's also shown genuine speed. Once dragging off even Habanna to save a try.

 

[big ginger 8]

Smith is by far and away the best defensive player around,

I wouldn't say he's the best defensive player in the world (he is good though) that's your opinion so it's not nesecarily wrong but still far and away is going a bit too far.