England 2023/24

[BPM]

Also haven't been giving the wingers the ball to create stuff with either

Don't have to be militantly one way or the other, Sleightholme would be a fine addition to a side as would IFW - both have different strengths and weaknesses and experience levels

I don't think Sleightholme is half as limited as he's being made out to be, though
Wouldn't have him ahead of Freeman, mind, but he's still class


When's Murley due back? I didn't realise he's played as little as he has this season (4 regular season games, 1 pre season) - considering the snubbing from SB in the past is he going to make the squad if he's not back...this week, to stake his claim
(though I imagine the squad is already settled, tbh)

Perhaps I should have put this weekend in bold when I said Sleightholme's tries were regulation finishes. I maintain that any pro winger (including Daly) would be scoring at least two of those and I wouldn't have used that hat trick as an indicator of him being test material.

Honestly, I think he's a good player. My main bugbear with him is his woeful injury record which isn't something he can do too much about.

I'd still put him behind a good few of the other options though.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Hearing that Josh Hodge may be back this weekend. He doesn't have much time to do it but if he can get back to anywhere near the kind of form he was in pre-injury then he surely has to be involved with England A.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Freddie steward arm was in a sling apprently.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

And Worcester fans...

Simpson, Smith, Lawrence, David, Heward, Shillcock, Atkinson, Hearle all doing well in the backs. Could make a decent backline out of those.

Yeh but Worcester knew all those players had that ability. Like most where all seasoned prem players.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Hearing that Josh Hodge may be back this weekend. He doesn't have much time to do it but if he can get back to anywhere near the kind of form he was in pre-injury then he surely has to be involved with England A.

What about Tom Wyatt in terms of England A?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

What about Tom Wyatt in terms of England A?

Don't think he's as good as Carpenter or Hodge at 15 or as good as the likes of Sleightholme, Roebuck, Reed, etc. on the wing.

Could be a useful guy to have on the bench though covering centre, wing and fullback.

 

[Which Tyler]

Just having a look at who's starting 12 in the Prem this season (stat.s from all.rugby).

Bath:
Redpath has starting 8 games at IC - He is, of course, Scottish.
Ojomoh has only started 2 games at IC (+10 in a different shirt) - Mostly playing alongside Redpath, and when that happens, they tend to play as numberless centres.

Bristol:
JVR has started 11 matches at IC (+4 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Saffer.
No real 2nd choice.

Exeter:
Hawkins has 10 starts at IC (+5 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Welsh.
Devoto has 4 starts at IC (+3 in a different shirt) - He is also >30 now.

Gloucester:
S.Atkinson has 10 starts at IC (+5 in a different shirt) - But he's playing poorly in a poor side.
2nd choice is split between M.Atkinson and Llewellyn - The former is 33 now, the latter is Welsh.

Harlequins:
Esterhuizen has 8 starts at IC (+1 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Saffer.
2nd choice is split between Anyanwu and Northmore.

Leicester:
Kelly has 9 starts at IC (+6 in a different shirt) - But he's playing... not great, and seems to have been moved out to OC to accommodate Kata (but still 75%+ an IC).
Kata has 6 starts at IC (+3 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Tongan.

Newcastle:
Orlando has 7 starts at IC (+9 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Argentine.
2nd choice is split between Hutchison and Holgate - Scottish and Saffer.

Northampton:
Hutchinson has 9 starts at IC (+2 in a different shirt) - ETA: Also, he's still Scottish
Dingwall had 4 starts at IC (+8 in a different shirt)

Sale:
Bedlow has 12 starts at IC (+1 in a different shirt)
Tuilagi has 2 starts at IC - and is injured again.

Saracens:
Thompkins has 9 starts at IC (+2 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Welsh.
Hartley has 9 starts at IC (+6 in a different shirt) - It is, IMO, too soon for him, needs a chance to not/suffer from second season syndrome.


This leaves us the choices of:
Ojomoh - Playing more at 13 this season, but is still mostly a 12, but becoming "numberless"
Devoto - Aged 30 and plagued by injury
S.Atkinson - Suffering second season syndrome
Kelly - Not playing great
Hutchinson - Is he really good enough? Or English enough?
Dingwall - Has risen from about 1/4 of his gametime at IC to about 1/3 - I still see him as an OC playing 12, but he's got more time there than a Slade or Lawrence
Bedlow - Is he really good enough?
Hartley - This is the first season he's played more than 10 matches.


Ojomoh and Dingwall have the advantage of potential club combinations with an OC. In which case, Ojomoh/Lawrence is ahead of Dingwall/Freeman; on the principal of Lawrence being in possession of an England shirt, and not being a completely novice pairing (yes, I know Freeman has a couple of caps in the back 3).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Snip

As a Bath fan what's your thoughts on Butt? Personally I'm a big fan. Tall, super athletic, fast, powerful, versatile. Obviously a long way off the England squad but potentially an outside bet for the England A side? Seems to me like the kinda guy who is only a couple of eye catching performances away from there being some buzz around him. Obviously doesn't help being behind Redpath, Lawrence and Ojomoh.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, Bedlow's playing very well but doesn't really look an international - the kind of guy who'd maybe get a Saxons cap vs the Barbarians or tour during a Lions year,
Very solid and dependable but no real USP or anything that makes him stand out above others (other than maybe defence, but that's not really a wow factor and none of the alternatives are slouches there)

My guess is Lawrence will be first choice 12, with Dingwall in the squad (and maybe Ojomoh too, depending on the squad makeup if it's a bigger sized EPS)

Hutchinson has 9 starts at IC (+2 in a different shirt)

Capped by Scotland, as well - can't swap back to England for a couple more years

 

[MarkyH]

Haven't seen much of Kelly this season but thought he was good vs Saracens at the weekend. Looked sharp, solid and faster. He wore 13 but cropped up at 12 a few times.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ojomoh and Lawrence as a numberless club combination sounds pretty much perfect.

They're also getting used to playing outside an adventurous 10 so might not be so fazed by Smith trying things.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Northampton Rory Hutchinson has Scottish caps so not eligible. Assume there was an error on him and the Newcastle Hutchinson/ 2nd choice.

My votes are 100% for Ojomoh, the club combo with Ollie and a general solid egg approach is perhaps what we need.

 

[Which Tyler]

As a Bath fan what's your thoughts on Butt? Personally I'm a big fan. Tall, super athletic, fast, powerful, versatile. Obviously a long way off the England squad but potentially an outside bet for the England A side? Seems to me like the kinda guy who is only a couple of eye catching performances away from there being some buzz around him. Obviously doesn't help being behind Redpath, Lawrence and Ojomoh.

Butt is decent, and still developing. I'm still not sure what his best position will end up being. He's currently down as:
11. 25%
12. 38%
13. 12%
14. 25%
And for me, looks best "suited" to 13.
I'd say he's got a shot for the Saxons bench, but... behind too many better options, both at club and international level.
If the tiny squad thing comes about, then I'd guess his versatility becomes more valuable.

Capped by Scotland, as well - can't swap back to England for a couple more years

My apologies, not sure if I missed it as I was doing him immediately after Newcastle's Scottish Hutchinson, or if I just missed it.


FTR: If I were Silly Bollocks, I think I'd currently pick Slade and Lawrence as "numberless" centres for England, with Ojomoh and Dingwall doing the same for the Saxons, and basically playing to be the IC in the summer.
I'd then look at bringing in the likes of Kelly, and Atkinson if/when they return to form, Hartley needs another 12 months before entering the conversation properly.
I'd start looking at the next generation of OCs of which we seem to have plenty to choose from from the summer onwards.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Kelly regaining form, he's looking better.
Feel like he was still coming back from injury

 

[Jimbo]

Yeah i think that's very close to what we'll see:

I do think Will Joseph will be involved though, either for Slade or Radwan

I'm not sure Kelly will be - SB wasn't keen over the summer and his form isn't good enough atm that I think it'd change SB's mind (and he's currently playing 13). Maybe Dingwall will get a look in?

I really hope Langdon is there, I'd have him there over LCD (who still looks a half step off the pace and I think would be better served having his minutes managed for the rest of this season then coming back into international contention in the summer)

I would be a little surprised to see Spencer involved just because he hasn't been before and he's been playing really well for literally years - I still think it'll be Randall, who I'm not particularly enthused about at international level (he and Mitchell too similar in strengths and weaknesses)

Honestly Spencer's lack of inclusion for England is baffeling, literally the most consistent 9 for pretty much a generation, all the while a player in an under performing team almost constantly battling relegation gets over a century.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Kelly regaining form, he's looking better.
Feel like he was still coming back from injury

Whilst he's playing second fiddle to Kata at 12 and Max O is second fiddle to Redpath and Dingwall is playing 13, it does make me wonder if England should have more say on some of these issues.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

@LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) does Kelly actually play a traditional 13 role when he's in that shirt or is it more a numberless centres kind of situation?

 

[Noonz]

Hartley has 9 starts at IC (+6 in a different shirt) - It is, IMO, too soon for him, needs a chance to not/suffer from second season syndrome.

I don't have the basis to back this claim up, but it seems like other nations are more confident in having younger/inexperienced players thrust into the test match arena, and yet England always seem overly cautious.

If Hartley looks to be good enough, why not back him now? Having him in England A matches should be the minimum if the consensus is that he has the potential for Senior squad duties in the long term.

 

[Geordie]

Feel sorry for your supporters. I'm from Consett (now based in the Midlands) and a few of my mates are Falcons fans. They're very depressed about the future of the club. Hopefully they can find some owners who want to take the club forward soon.

Aawww I was born in Consett but left after 3 months...my dad's a Consett lad through and through.

Yeah they owners have said they're going to go down the route of rhe kids.

Now thats fair enough and I have said we should be doing that for years. But you still need a couple of experienced pros in the core to help them. We got rid of everyone..then sign Cardall and McDonald for example etc who have been excellent when they have played....and yet they rotate them out to much

John Hawkins has been outstanding at 6..yet they persist in playing him at lock?? Why? He gives you a 6'5, 6 who is mobile and has real power in the grunt and nitty gritty.

So clearly selection is a big issue aswell.

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't have the basis to back this claim up, but it seems like other nations are more confident in having younger/inexperienced players thrust into the test match arena, and yet England always seem overly cautious.

If Hartley looks to be good enough, why not back him now? Having him in England A matches should be the minimum if the consensus is that he has the potential for Senior squad duties in the long term.

Because we have more options, and don't need to force it and risk ruining a player (we also have the worlds worst media, and more options, so a stuttering player won't be given many opportunities to come through it and out the other side).

Because second season syndrome is a thing. Looking good in your breakthrough season is relatively easy, as no-one knows what to expect, and you're playing full of the confidence of youth. No way of knowing if that's "class is permanent" or a purple patch of form because no-one's made a plan for you. Looking good after your breakthrough season, when you've picked up your first injury, and your first dip in form, the first knock to your confidence, and against opposition who know what to expect from you, and have developed a plan to nullify your strength and exploit your weakness, is a very different thing indeed.

Because Ollie Hartley isn't any more clearly and obviously international standard than Dan Kelly, or Seb Atkinson, or Max Ojomoh, (or Fraser Dingwall), and we can't throw all 4(5) of them into the same shirt.