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England 2023/24

TRF_Olyy said:
Senior squad I reckon we're gonna be pretty disappointed with and SB will go with three of Watson/Malins/Daly/Steward (though after dropping Malins in the world cup I'm hoping he's not as high up the pecking order and might get replaced)
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I'm thinking that Malins probably is done, at least for now. When he was selected before he was actually playing good rugby for Sarries so it made some sense for him to be included in the setup. But Borthwick clearly wasn't a big fan of him at the World Cup and now he's not really doing anything at Bristol so I think there's a good chance he does actually get left out.

I may just be being hopeful though.
 
West Country Wail said:
I'm just seeing a very good catcher and runner of the ball? Not to be sniffed at but am I missing something else?
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No. This is he problem with highlights. Folks see a player score a few tries and automatically think 'he's good'.

Sleightholme is a good finisher, very quick and solid in most aspects (defensively) etc. but being on the end of some good team tries is kind of what you expect from a winger.

For two of his tries on Saturday, he was the last man in an overlap scenario stationed on the right wing. The finishes were regulation. He was stood exactly where you'd expect any winger to be so it's not exactly like he was showing Ashton-like predatory instincts to be in the right place at the right time. The other try was a good support line, but again nothing special.

It sounds like I'm criticising him - I'm not. He did everything right. My point is simply that there's not been anything outstanding about his recent glut of tries.

@Pieter Steph du Teague described it well yesterday when he said Feyi-Waboso is often creating something from nothing. He same is very true for Radwan and for Murley too. That is the kind of thing we should be looking at IMO.
 
BPM said:
No. This is he problem with highlights. Folks see a player score a few tries and automatically think 'he's good'.

Sleightholme is a good finisher, very quick and solid in most aspects (defensively) etc. but being on the end of some good team tries is kind of what you expect from a winger.

For two of his tries on Saturday, he was the last man in an overlap scenario stationed on the right wing. The finishes were regulation. He was stood exactly where you'd expect any winger to be so it's not exactly like he was showing Ashton-like predatory instincts to be in the right place at the right time. The other try was a good support line, but again nothing special.

It sounds like I'm criticising him - I'm not. He did everything right. My point is simply that there's not been anything outstanding about his recent glut of tries.

@Pieter Steph du Teague described it well yesterday when he said Feyi-Waboso is often creating something from nothing. He same is very true for Radwan and for Murley too. That is the kind of thing we should be looking at IMO.
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There's a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time and doing the simple things consistently well. 'The basics' in attack or defence account for maybe 95% of involvements.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely want some rabbit out the hat merchants. But those moments have to be seen as bonuses, not expectations to be relied on.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
There's a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time and doing the simple things consistently well. 'The basics' in attack or defence account for maybe 95% of involvements.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely want some rabbit out the hat merchants. But those moments have to be seen as bonuses, not expectations to be relied on.
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This is true, and that's where Radwan falls short for me. Ideally you want someone who can do both - Murley (fit ofc) offers that
 
You need to have a balance in the 3/4s. The issue England have had since Robinson is that we haven't selected the X Factor type players "just in case they make a mistake".

I can see a back three of Watson, Steward and Daly. As it's not in SB DNA to shake things up
 
Six Nations 2024: Immanuel Feyi-Waboso set to opt for England over Wales before tournament - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67908255

Qualified, plays rugby and doing a degree in England, i dont blame him for picking England(if he does). Very good prospelect for the A league game. Powerful in beating the first man, loves an intercept and chases hard. Havnt noticed any glaring defencive issues either.
 
Reiser99 said:
I see the point, but on the flip side England can definitely be accused of being too conservative in their selections at times. I'm not saying pick him, but just because he's young and new doesn't mean you have to dismiss him either. From what I've seen (which is admittedly limited), he is exactly the kind of player England have been missing. Someone who can make good breaks in limited space. He's a player who you would be genuinely excited to see get the ball and there haven't been too many of them for England. We used to have Robinson, Manu did the job in a different way. May could create something out of nothing, but tbh could also spend the game running sideways. Arundel was hyped up, but he's gone now. Maybe it's a bit harsh on the other players, but how many of them are regularly making breaks from absolutely no where?
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Like many others on here I've only seen highlights of him, but he does seem to be a strong, gifted, intelligent player who is able to play the correct option at pace. Not many wingers would be able to sit Steven Luatua down in the manner that he did. However, he has beaten some very poor defences en route to the try line and International defences won't give him anywhere near the space he's been given by some premier teams this season
 
He'll probably get 1 or 2 caps then we'll never see him again at international level. England are scared.

* swigs whiskey straight from bottle
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
There's a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time and doing the simple things consistently well. 'The basics' in attack or defence account for maybe 95% of involvements.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely want some rabbit out the hat merchants. But those moments have to be seen as bonuses, not expectations to be relied on.
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Sure - my point was that pretty much any winger would have scored Sleightholme's tries this weekend. I'm finding it hard to praise him for being a winger standing on the wing. I just don't see a point of difference there.

It's definitely possible to do the basics well and be capable of pulling the odd rabbit out of the hat. I think that's exactly what Murley does. Radwan is unfairly classed as purely an x-factor guy when he does a lot of the basics pretty well too.
 
BPM said:
Sure - my point was that pretty much any winger would have scored Sleightholme's tries this weekend. I'm finding it hard to praise him for being a winger standing on the wing. I just don't see a point of difference there.

It's definitely possible to do the basics well and be capable of pulling the odd rabbit out of the hat. I think that's exactly what Murley does. Radwan is unfairly classed as purely an x-factor guy when he does a lot of the basics pretty well too.
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I think that is a little unfair on Sleightome. I accept that he doesn't side step multiple players from deep and create his own tries. He is however very quick and strong and runs great support lines.

I can almost guarantee you that Elliot Daly for example would not of run those exact support lines as he doesn't have a wingers instinct. The same with Malins who runs good support lines but does not have the pace at international level to get on the end of breakaways.

His tries look simple as he runs instinctive support lines and has the gas to get on the end of them.

Chris Ashton forged a career out it
 
Everyday EggChaser said:
Ashton started as a full back in league so his support lines were league fullback lines not wingers lines.
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Yeah for Wigan Warriors I watched him since he made debut in 05. But thanks for the lesson

Internationally probably the best two support runners at the moment are Du Pont and Talea who pops up everywhere. No RL background for either of them
 
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We should also remember that England haven't exactly been creating the chances that just need finishing.
 
Also haven't been giving the wingers the ball to create stuff with either

Don't have to be militantly one way or the other, Sleightholme would be a fine addition to a side as would IFW - both have different strengths and weaknesses and experience levels

I don't think Sleightholme is half as limited as he's being made out to be, though
Wouldn't have him ahead of Freeman, mind, but he's still class


When's Murley due back? I didn't realise he's played as little as he has this season (4 regular season games, 1 pre season) - considering the snubbing from SB in the past is he going to make the squad if he's not back...this week, to stake his claim
(though I imagine the squad is already settled, tbh)
 

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