England 2023/24

[Ragey Erasmus]

Your old coach had never heard of scrum halves then! (flankers should be next)

SHs are probably the fittest in terms of pure running but 6's also have to make tackles and shift people at rucks, which is more energy sapping.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

He can't run though and moves like a tanker as a normal bloke at 19 odd stone should.

What you gain in a couple of lineouts a game you loose ruck speed (which is England's Achilles).he can carry and tackle just the same playing at 5.

Let him develop as a TH lock and let one of the many flankers we have play 6

An old coach of mine always insisted that a six should be fittest player on the team with most stamina. Martin will never be anywhere near that due to his build

But if you're playing Earl and Curry you've already got a couple of Duracell bunnies. You want someone who complements them, not more of the same.

That may be Martin or someone else but on Martin he gets around well enough with a high work rate while obviously carrying more bulk than he has. He's like Underhill in that he makes a proper impact in contact. In future that might be from lock, but I really wouldn't discount him from the back row equation.

As for Arundell, I think being in France will be brilliant for him. He's still got a lot of learning to do but if we can get him the ball in a bit of space he'll terrify defences. If we can't invest in a player with his obvious talent - in a position of weakness - then some major questions have to be asked of the leadership group. Although if Farrell doesn't like him now, God knows how he'll react to "Jouer Owen, jouer…..".

 

[LIONSxv]

But if you're playing Earl and Curry you've already got a couple of Duracell bunnies. You want someone who complements them, not more of the same.

That may be Martin or someone else but on Martin he gets around well enough with a high work rate while obviously carrying more bulk than he has. He's like Underhill in that he makes a proper impact in contact. In future that might be from lock, but I really wouldn't discount him from the back row equation.

As for Arundell, I think being in France will be brilliant for him. He's still got a lot of learning to do but if we can get him the ball in a bit of space he'll terrify defences. If we can't invest in a player with his obvious talent - in a position of weakness - then some major questions have to be asked of the leadership group. Although if Farrell doesn't like him now, God knows how he'll react to "Jouer Owen, jouer…..".

Id play 2 from Curry/Underhill and Earl. And a proper 8 who is also line out option. Willis, Mercer or a slimmer down/fitter Dombrandt. With Chessum/Itoje at 4 and Martin at 5.
We desperately need Martin pushing at the scrum given the fragility of our props. Whilst we have a nice stock of locks , Martin is the only one that fits old school TH lock in terms of build and playing style

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Id play 2 from Curry/Underhill and Earl. And a proper 8 who is also line out option. Willis, Mercer or a slimmer down/fitter Dombrandt. With Chessum/Itoje at 4 and Martin at 5.
We desperately need Martin pushing at the scrum given the fragility of our props. Whilst we have a nice stock of locks , Martin is the only one that fits old school TH lock in terms of build and playing style

I think Isiekwe does too - big heavy unit happy doing the grunt stuff. Better in the air than Martin (and virtually everyone else). Maybe not as good on the carry, but there's always a trade off.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. Earl's an interesting one. He's made his mark at 8 and you can argue that his point of difference is his carrying which is best deployed there. Would he be as impactful from 7? Do we then need someone who can play 6 and 8 equally well so we can mix and match as the situation demands? Lots for SB to think about.

 

[Geordie]

The thing with Earl (imo) is that he can do it all. He is a very strong breakdown operator...he can tackle all day..hes strong, aggressive and fit as a butchers dog. Add in what he offers with ball in hand (which is the critical part, we need goo carriers) and he MUST be in the back row.
So then its down to how you want to set it up.

6 Underhill / Curry
7 Earl
8 Willis / Mercer / Dombrandt / A.N.Other (Ie A Bigger 8)

6 Chessum / Ted HIll / A.N.Other (ie A bigger 6)
7 Curry / Underhill
8 Earl

6 Underhill
7 Curry
8 Earl


Personally i think SB will go horses for courses as suits the opposition we're playing.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Iseikwe for me had to be one of thr first choice locks (overtaking tizzard) if he's to be in the England frame and he also has to offer more with hard hitting tackles and carry's. I've not watched sarries yet this season (I think) so don't know of that's what he offers but I know last few seasons he just drifted in a lot of games.

We need to start getting X factor players that offer something special across the team rather than a load of players that are kinda fit and kinda ok.

Although saying that, curry, Earl, underhill, Chessum, Itoje and Martin already offer something special. Not so sure about the front row just yet.

The backs are just a mess entirely and that won't change until be bin off Farrell the average one.

 

[Geordie]

Iseikwe for me had to be one of thr first choice locks (overtaking tizzard) if he's to be in the England frame and he also has to offer more with hard hitting tackles and carry's. I've not watched sarries yet this season (I think) so don't know of that's what he offers but I know last few seasons he just drifted in a lot of games.

We need to start getting X factor players that offer something special across the team rather than a load of players that are kinda fit and kinda ok.

Although saying that, curry, Earl, underhill, Chessum, Itoje and Martin already offer something special. Not so sure about the front row just yet.

The backs are just a mess entirely and that won't change until be bin off Farrell the average one.

I agree each one of them offers something now...and are all generally fit and athletic...meaning (referring back to Baxter) you can afford a more scrummaging based front row...Cole / Painter (if he continues his turnaround)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The thing with Earl (imo) is that he can do it all. He is a very strong breakdown operator...he can tackle all day..hes strong, aggressive and fit as a butchers dog. Add in what he offers with ball in hand and he MUST be in the back row.
So then its down to how you want to set it up.

6 Underhill / Curry
7 Earl
8 Willis / Mercer / Dombrandt / A.N.Other (Ie A Bigger 8)

6 Chessum / Ted HIll / A.N.Other (ie A bigger 6)
7 Curry / Underhill
8 Earl

6 Underhill
7 Curry
8 Earl


Personally i think SB will go horses for courses as suits the opposition we're playing.

You may well be right although I'm not that keen on horses for courses. Far better to develop cohesive units than to think X player or Y player might be right for a particular game and regularly chop and change. Let the opposition worry more about you, although clearly you can't totally ignore what the opposition are likely to bring.

Iseikwe for me had to be one of thr first choice locks (overtaking tizzard) if he's to be in the England frame and he also has to offer more with hard hitting tackles and carry's. I've not watched sarries yet this season (I think) so don't know of that's what he offers but I know last few seasons he just drifted in a lot of games.

I saw him live the other week and he was very very good. Now he's over a major health issue let's see how he goes.

We need to start getting X factor players that offer something special across the team rather than a load of players that are kinda fit and kinda ok.

You need some of those but what you need more are complementary skills and understanding that make the team greater than the sum of its parts. No coincidence for me that Itoje played some of his best rugby in tandem with the unfussy, but excellent, Kruis.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Iseikwe for me had to be one of thr first choice locks (overtaking tizzard) if he's to be in the England frame and he also has to offer more with hard hitting tackles and carry's. I've not watched sarries yet this season (I think) so don't know of that's what he offers but I know last few seasons he just drifted in a lot of games.

He's started the season vveerryy well, tbf - I know I've been championing his cause for ages so am a bit biased but he has been in very good form, and does look to be first choice ahead of Tizzard (based on the Tigers game, which looks to be their first choice lineup)

 

[Geordie]

You may well be right although I'm not that keen on horses for courses. Far better to develop cohesive units than to think X player or Y player might be right for a particular game and regularly chop and change. Let the opposition worry more about you, although clearly you can't totally ignore what the opposition are likely to bring.



I saw him live the other week and he was very very good. Now he's over a major health issue let's see how he goes.



You need some of those but what you need more are complementary skills and understanding that make the team greater than the sum of its parts. No coincidence for me that Itoje played some of his best rugby in tandem with the unfussy, but excellent, Kruis.

Im actually with you...i would prefer a set strongest lineup, but i just think SB might mix it up a bit for the opposition.

Kruis was your heavy duty work horse tight head lock that was brilliant for the team, i still despair at Jones decision to bench him for the WC final...madness
Hopefuly thats what George Martin can become. The grafting rock that allows Itoje or Chessum to do their magic.

I think in the pack we have alot of work horse players...and players defensively who can change the game...Martin or Underhill with a BIG hit or Curry with a turnover etc...but it would be nice to have a couple of players who can offer an attacking buzz. Earl is one of those...he can make some sensational plays ball in hand...and its critical.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

 

[Geordie]

I think that video shows why he wasnt trusted by SB or Sinfield just yet for the bigger games. Hes a work in progress.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think that video shows why he wasnt trusted by SB or Sinfield just yet for the bigger games. Hes a work in progress.

He is. Normally I'd want to see a more complete player before promotion to the national team, but he really can do exceptional things ball in hand so I'm happy to make an exception as long as the good outweighs the bad more often than not….and as long as he's going to get some ball to work with. If you just want balls chased all day you might as well play a border collie.

He'll iron out the defensive stuff quickly enough with regular game time (and as a wing you can get quite badly exposed if the team pattern's not right).

SB should invest in him and stick by him in the inevitable rocky periods. A bit of bravery now could give us a 25 year old potential match winner with 50 caps of experience by the next RWC. Why wouldn't you want that, especially bearing in mind how thin our wing stocks have been?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Think this season will be huge for Arundell. Up until now he's had pretty limited game time but if he can get himself consistent minutes for a team like Racing then that'll be enormous for his development. Love to see that the team is clearly intent on getting him on the ball as much as possible.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Wales managed to do it with both Adams and LRZ, neither of whom was a complete player when introduced to the Test side. Adams never looked secure in defence at Worcester and I'm not sure that LRZ is much good even now.

What they brought was pace (which makes up somewhat for defensive naivety) and try-scoring ability. Clearly, defence is something which can be improved by well-directed practice and more experience; pace and try-scoring, less so. I'd rather have a winger that scores three and concedes two than one who scores nowt and concedes nowt.

I really fear the prospect of England wasting a golden generation of attacking talent, based on inconsistent selection and the insatiable urge to hoof the ball up in the air.

 

[Geordie]

He is. Normally I'd want to see a more complete player before promotion to the national team, but he really can do exceptional things ball in hand so I'm happy to make an exception as long as the good outweighs the bad more often than not….and as long as he's going to get some ball to work with. If you just want balls chased all day you might as well play a border collie.

He'll iron out the defensive stuff quickly enough with regular game time (and as a wing you can get quite badly exposed if the team pattern's not right).

SB should invest in him and stick by him in the inevitable rocky periods. A bit of bravery now could give us a 25 year old potential match winner with 50 caps of experience by the next RWC. Why wouldn't you want that, especially bearing in mind how thin our wing stocks have been?

Yeah i think he can be some player.

Hopefully your right and SB does now invest the time. Hes most definately worth it.

People forget Johnny May was a scintillating headless chicken when he came through...and became at his peak the best winger in the world..his defensive play was top class. No reason Arundel cant be the same.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

While I love the stardust that Arundell has, I'd rather just invest in Freeman, Murley, Radwan etc as they all also have some xfactor and apart from Radwan are a much more complete players.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

and apart from Radwan

I think Radwan is much more complete than Arundell atm - certainly better in defence
Though was probably in a similar state as HA at that age, tbf

 

[Geordie]

Radwan wont wear an England shirt again. Clearly not fancied.
Hopefully Malins is resigned to that also.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Radwan will prob move to somewhere like Sarries to try and gain favour