England 2023/24

[Which Tyler]

We do. England haven't produced a good inside centre since Will Greenwood. That was over 20 years ago.

Define "good"

Stuart Abbott
Olly Barkely
Ollie Smith

More recently
Cam Redpath
Chris Harris
Jonny Williams
Nick Tomkins

If you're definition of "good" is "world class" (eg, Will Greenwood) then no-one's any good at producing ICs.

 

[BPM]

They are 'good' players, but none of those has even come close to the level of quality we've seen in pretty much every other position on the field.

Ironic that there are four there who have ended up representing other home nations. However, I'm not totally sure we'd have taken any of them back either.

The list of those who did play for England isn't exactly stellar which is also why we capped the likes of Barritt, Flutey and Hape and we're apparently keeping an eye on BJVR.

It's also why we were so keen to try to make Burgess' move work.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I just think that we're not persistent enough with trying to develop them (12s). If a club team has a top-class centre come through the ranks then it makes sense to play them at 13 where they have more space, time on the ball, etc. and so can make more line-breaks/score more tries. There's no reason that the likes of Slade, Lawrence, etc. couldn't be very good 12s if they consistently played there, but the clubs have no reason to play them there as it's not in their best interests. They'd rather put their international-class centres in the position that gives them more freedom to change games.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

I just think that we're not persistent enough with trying to develop them (12s). If a club team has a top-class centre come through the ranks then it makes sense to play them at 13 where they have more space, time on the ball, etc. and so can make more line-breaks/score more tries. There's no reason that the likes of Slade, Lawrence, etc. couldn't be very good 12s if they consistently played there, but the clubs have no reason to play them there as it's not in their best interests. They'd rather put their international-class centres in the position that gives them more freedom to change games.

The one that I find so strange is Henry Slade. If you look at his strengths - passing and kicking he should be perfect for inside centre. And yet Exeter have always played him at outside.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I just think that we're not persistent enough with trying to develop them (12s). If a club team has a top-class centre come through the ranks then it makes sense to play them at 13 where they have more space, time on the ball, etc. and so can make more line-breaks/score more tries. There's no reason that the likes of Slade, Lawrence, etc. couldn't be very good 12s if they consistently played there, but the clubs have no reason to play them there as it's not in their best interests. They'd rather put their international-class centres in the position that gives them more freedom to change games.

I'd argue a 12 has as much capacity to change a game as a 13, just less likely through stuff that will get on a highlight reel. Roberts was hugely influential for Wales during their purple patch in the 2010's, Nonu was instrumental in one of the best teams ever and South Africa keep churning out big units there etc. I quite like the idea of a 12 and 13 who can function as a pair, swapping around as needed in attack and defence. It's something England have kinda tried to do but I don't think many clubs do.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Billy Twelvetrees nags at me a bit. He had all the attributes to be England's 12 for a long time, but lost form and then dropped totally out of the conversation for nearly a decade.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Smith's injury is enough that he misses the tour I hope they bring a different backline position along in his place and don't just replace him with Atkinson

 

[Crash Hamster]

Wonder if Obano has now lost his place on the tour..?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wonder if Obano has now lost his place on the tour..?

Almost definitely - he'll probably get 6 down to 3 down to 2,
There's only three games so no point in him going

 

[higgik]

The one that I find so strange is Henry Slade. If you look at his strengths - passing and kicking he should be perfect for inside centre. And yet Exeter have always played him at outside.

Is that more to do with trying to get width on the ball, so the 13 is more of the '2nd wave', with 12 being the defence holding player.
The ABs started this with Nonu and Smith at 12 and 13.

 

[higgik]

I'd argue a 12 has as much capacity to change a game as a 13, just less likely through stuff that will get on a highlight reel. Roberts was hugely influential for Wales during their purple patch in the 2010's, Nonu was instrumental in one of the best teams ever and South Africa keep churning out big units there etc. I quite like the idea of a 12 and 13 who can function as a pair, swapping around as needed in attack and defence. It's something England have kinda tried to do but I don't think many clubs do.

Exactly my point, the 2nd playmaker has been moved from 12 to 13 in recent years to get around the blitz defence.
Now the 15 has become more of this role, so the idea of a gain line and playmaker has moved onto 2 strong players with good hands as well.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Define "good"

Stuart Abbott
Olly Barkely
Ollie Smith

More recently
Cam Redpath
Chris Harris
Jonny Williams
Nick Tomkins

If you're definition of "good" is "world class" (eg, Will Greenwood) then no-one's any good at producing ICs.

Anthony Allen had all the makings to become a mainstay England 12, and imo could've become word class

Honestly I find it amazing that we had Allen and Manu partnership performing constantly well together at club level never getting a chance at international level

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Underhill and Earl have both sealed their names in the starting back row for a while IMO.

Big question is 6 IMO Curry/Chessum/CCS/Pearson/Hill - Potentially in that order for me.
Bench I would lean to between Alfie and CCS just due to their impact

 

[BPM]

Yeah, as long as the injury hasn't significantly affected him, Curry is the obvious player to come in at 6 with CCS on the bench for impact. If CCS continues to play 6 at Quins (which I think he will), I think he may leapfrog Chessum.

Hill has all the right qualities, in his case it's more about putting in a good stretch of fitness and form to press his claim. Not a bad thing if he's playing alongside Underhill and Barbeary.

I'd go the other way but SB seems to be more of a fan of Roots than Pearson.

 

[BPM]

A random thought that occurred to me when looking at the Super Rugby results … Will losing the SA teams from the club competition have a negative impact on the All Blacks?

A less competitive format has pluses and minuses. On the one hand, their players will be less battered but on the other, they may have lost something by being less 'battle hardened'.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ford confirmed out

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Atkinson to start

 

[BPM]

Not ideal, but as long as Fin Smith is OK (he seemed confident he is post-game), not having the 'safe' option of Ford could actually be a good thing for England.

 

[higgik]

Not ideal, but as long as Fin Smith is OK (he seemed confident he is post-game), not having the 'safe' option of Ford could actually be a good thing for England.

Spencer, Smith F, Freeman, Lawrence, Slade, Muir, Furbank to start v Japan.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Guess 10 options will be Smith x2 and Furbank