England 2023/24

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah he didn't look good going off on the weekend, only lasted about 100 seconds before the injury

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What are people's thoughts on Joe Batley? I admittedly don't watch a huge amount of Bristol so I don't have a great idea of what he's like as a player but I've been impressed by him on a number of occasions. Very dynamic and a great ball carrier for a lock. 6'7, ~125kg. Could he work his way into the conversation for a squad place?

Has he got some big flaws I'm unaware of?

Honestly beyond the name I don't really know anything
I know I've seen him play numerous times but.....

I wouldn't put too much faith in a Pat Lam coached tight 5 player though

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I wouldn't put too much faith in a Pat Lam coached tight 5 player though

Good point, well made.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Batley is like the typical really good Prem player but nothing to suggest he is a international

He's big but isn't an enforcer

 

[BPM]

I'm less bothered about whether he's an 'enforcer' or not. He's a good player but not someone I see troubling England senior squad selection. England A maybe.

I'd put him on a similar level to Clarke at Gloucester.

 

[LIONSxv]

This I why it's essential to let Martin concentrate and develop as a lock. Not some hybrid lock 6.

Not only is he a big old unit, but seemingly likes the physical side of the game. We have plenty of big locks but none that are particularly physical/dominant

 

[Geordie]

This I why it's essential to let Martin concentrate and develop as a lock. Not some hybrid lock 6.

Not only is he a big old unit, but seemingly likes the physical side of the game. We have plenty of big locks but none that are particularly physical/dominant

Yeah i totally agree.

And even though ive said on previous threads Chessum could be at 6 for the 6n...i really hope hes not...and i hope we look to build up 4 top class locks for the squad...who only cover 6 in absolute desperation

Itoje
Martin
Chessum
A.N.Other - Decide on who to develop and work on him...Isiekwe, Coles, etc etc

Let the backrowers battle for the 6 spot. If they want a taller or bigger unit there..we have them...Kenningham, Pearson. Jack Willis (if he becomes available) Ted Hill...etc etc

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

This I why it's essential to let Martin concentrate and develop as a lock. Not some hybrid lock 6.

Not only is he a big old unit, but seemingly likes the physical side of the game. We have plenty of big locks but none that are particularly physical/dominant

I think this is something we so often miss in player selection. We just look at some stat sheet for their height, weight etc and assume big bugger = bruising rugby player. It's just not the case. Hamish Watson is a better carrier in traffic than Billy V despite being much smaller. We need to select people who aren't just big but also love the physical confrontation. Underhill for example has said he loves the tackling side of the game and it really shows. Billy V seems to love none of the game and it also shows.

Let's select players who actually want to be there and want to do the things we select them to do.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think this is something we so often miss in player selection. We just look at some stat sheet for their height, weight etc and assume big bugger = bruising rugby player. It's just not the case. Hamish Watson is a better carrier in traffic than Billy V despite being much smaller. We need to select people who aren't just big but also love the physical confrontation. Underhill for example has said he loves the tackling side of the game and it really shows. Billy V seems to love none of the game and it also shows.

Let's select players who actually want to be there and want to do the things we select them to do.

Completely. That physicality, intensity and in your face stuff is essential. That's an extension of the natural 'need' to win and refusal to take a step backwards that's hardwired in the Boks DNA. Where our players have a bit of fire we seem to coach it out of them - Genge and Sinckler being obvious examples.

It's why I've long said Underhill is our most critical player. Martin looks another with a don't mess with me aura. Likes of Itoje and George can influence games with rugby skills but if it's not that kind of day don't really intimidate.

I'd rather have players who punch above their weight. But we do also need some size, especially in the front five.

 

[BPM]

A lot of Genge and Sinckler's 'fire' was counter productive though. Underhill is a much better example of what we actually want. You don't need to be 'in your face' telling everyone you're a hard man to be uncompromising and brutal.

As much as I can't stand the Boks, most of them are much closer to Underhill's type of cold ferocity than Genge's nightclub at 2am BS. They're more like an army of terminators - not shouty hotheads.

Sinckler's was always overblown anyway (largely on account of the AWJ incident) and was predominantly backchat etc. The drop off from when he was at his best is significant, but I don't think it's to do with him maturing and losing his 'fire'.

 

[Geordie]

Tight head is one of SBs biggest headaches.

I wouldn't have Stusrt or Sinckler anywhere near the squad.

And aside from Painter who's a) still undergoing his rebuild at Exeter..there's not many other option's standing out...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Sinckler's had constant back issues which have gone on for years. Seems to be a long standing issue and I wonder if that's had a role to play in him becoming a damp squib of a player.

I am a little worried in general about the production line of forwards though. Maybe it's an unjust worry but apart from backrow we just don't seem to have a great production line considering the amount of players we have in the premiership.

I'm also curious about players like Moon and Freddie Clarke for example, would they be able to step up to international level?

Or haven't they shown enough above the basics to deserve a shot.

I guess the question I'm trying to ask is, what are we looking for in a potential English international forward?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

A lot of Genge and Sinckler's 'fire' was counter productive though. Underhill is a much better example of what we actually want. You don't need to be 'in your face' telling everyone you're a hard man to be uncompromising and brutal.

As much as I can't stand the Boks, most of them are much closer to Underhill's type of cold ferocity than Genge's nightclub at 2am BS. They're more like an army of terminators - not shouty hotheads.

Sinckler's was always overblown anyway (largely on account of the AWJ incident) and was predominantly backchat etc. The drop off from when he was at his best is significant, but I don't think it's to do with him maturing and losing his 'fire'.

Yeah largely, although no coincidence that their totem is Etzebeth who's generally right in the middle of any mischief. Winding up opponents still has a place.

However you define it, pure rugby skills need to be backed up with some 'edge'. Maybe the best way to think about it is in terms of intensity and pride at winning the contact.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I was thinking about where England get their players and came to the conclusion that internationals moving to France for the money isn't as much of a problem as I thought. England have a huge player pool and part of the problem with selecting a XV is deciding which of two or three very similar players to pick. One player ruling himself out of contention may give another similar player an extended run in the side, to the benefit of player and country.

I'll admit this is a very 'broad brush' thought, but some of the remaining problems are of our own making (trying to change world class players into something they're not; not allowing scrums to reach their natural conclusion; playing players out of position at international level)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sinckler's had constant back issues which have gone on for years. Seems to be a long standing issue and I wonder if that's had a role to play in him becoming a damp squib of a player.

I am a little worried in general about the production line of forwards though. Maybe it's an unjust worry but apart from backrow we just don't seem to have a great production line considering the amount of players we have in the premiership.

I'm also curious about players like Moon and Freddie Clarke for example, would they be able to step up to international level?

Or haven't they shown enough above the basics to deserve a shot.

I guess the question I'm trying to ask is, what are we looking for in a potential English international forward?

Time away from the bloody academies. Actually challenging themselves to play in unfamiliar surroundings.

An increased emphasis on the set piece at club level. Baxter's been banging on about the scrums again. Making them more of a contest so the big guys are more knackered. 100% agreed.

Game time. I've been very selective but here are some of the starting packs from this week's Prem games.

Chiefs: Sio (Aus), Vermulen (SA), Roots (NZ), Davis (SA), James (Wal)

Sharks: Schonert (SA), Wiese (SA), van Rhys (SA), du Preez (SA)

Bath: du Toit (SA), Annett (Ire), Jonker (SA), van Velze (SA), Cloete (SA), Coetzee (SA)

Tigers: Cronin (Ire), Montoya (Arg), Henderson (Sco), Liebenberg (SA), Wiese (SA). Reffell (Wal)

I haven't looked at all the teams and there are some where the situation is much better eg Quins and Saints. Nonetheless.

There's the odd one or two in there that qualify for Eng like Schonert (fair play, been here a while now, but still an import as a senior age player), but the minority. A couple of top class players like Montoya, du Toit and J Wiese who youngsters may look up to but for the most part aging journeymen who are perfectly good Prem players but no better. They can't be doing anything other than blocking young English talent.

 

[Which Tyler]

Bath: du Toit (SA), Annett (Ire), Jonker (SA), van Velze (SA), Cloete (SA), Coetzee (SA)

I know you're cherry picking, but... Bath are ridiculously heavily rotated.
Our first choice XV has 8 Englishmen in the starting pack (I'd have a Saffer in there, but so far, he's used off the bench; there's also FLW, but I think we're over-using him as we only have him for 2 months).

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I know you're cherry picking, but... Bath are ridiculously heavily rotated.
Our first choice XV has 8 Englishmen in the starting pack (I'd have a Saffer in there, but so far, he's used off the bench; there's also FLW, but I think we're over-using him as we only have him for 2 months).

Bath's park could have been an England A pack a few years ago if we had one:

Obano Dunn Stuart
Ewels Stooke
Hill underhill
Barbeary

Saints will be putting out an all English 8 quite a few times this season but not sure on the international class of some of those players.

 

[Geordie]

The key is making the prem itself a breeding /testing ground...which I don't think it currently is.
Defence is often optional...teams trying to play 7s style rugby which doesn't prepare kids for international rugby...which ISNT 7s. Are players fit enough...Borthwicks comments would suggest theyre not.

I agree with what Baxter said the other week about props and scrummaging etc we need to be producing forwards who want to do the key skills of their role. Ie Props scrummage like tanks...not being playmakers in the midfield.
We are producing the players but the path from u16, U18 and u20 to the seniors seems to be the issue. May e the new training camps will help address that.

We do have players coming through though...Ollie Chessum is very young and now a key member, George Martin following quickly, .Ollies brother Lewis will be coming through very soon..Phil Brantingham at prop starting for us now looks a powerful option...and he will be playing against big Painter on Sunday a proper old school Tight head who Baxter is rejuvenating...and could well be in the 6n squad.
Cunningham-South an option coming through...

That's just a handful of names

I really like Alex Coles at Saints who's playing well tonight...

Borthwick is old school...and he'll make sure the players coming in...have to do their job properly

 

[BPM]

I'm not sure I really get the hype around CCS? Sure he's promising but there are plenty of good players ahead of him.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I'm not sure I really get the hype around CCS? Sure he's promising but there are plenty of good players ahead of him.

High ceiling? I reckon he'll be extremely good, just needs game time (and no serious injuries.) Going to be difficult for him to break through internationally as he's competing in an area of strength for England.

Or maybe he'd be an excellent third lineout jumper, in which case, first cap incoming 6N 2024..?