England 2023/24

[Vieux Talonneur]

How have the nuts and bolts 3/4 been doing...tearing it up ? No tries at the WC for nuts and bolts players
This is the problem with the English mentality, we don't pick players as they might make an error. On the other hand they might create or score multiple tries
What the "highlights players" also inadvertently do is the change how teams defend. It's so much easy to set a defence when you are 99% sure your not going to get gassed or stepped

Look at SAs back three, none are nuts and bolts players. It's definitely the case of both Willamse and Arendse that they are lacking at times in defence...yet they still played

Largely agree with this. I think Lawrence should become a fixture in midfield but looking at the rest of the list that Geordie posted I'm thinking fine or good club player with the one exception of Radwan who has a trick that will frighten any defence. Maybe not the most rounded player but if you are going to run the ball occasionally why not give it to someone with serious wheels? Might be my imagination but he also seems to pop up infield looking for work more than some others (or maybe he just runs cross field a bit more?). If he played for Saints rather than Falcons I suspect he'd get a lot more attention.

 

[Geordie]

Largely agree with this. I think Lawrence should become a fixture in midfield but looking at the rest of the list that Geordie posted I'm thinking fine or good club player with the one exception of Radwan who has a trick that will frighten any defence. Maybe not the most rounded player but if you are going to run the ball occasionally why not give it to someone with serious wheels? Might be my imagination but he also seems to pop up infield looking for work more than some others (or maybe he just runs cross field a bit more?). If he played for Saints rather than Falcons I suspect he'd get a lot more attention.

Not your imagination...he goes looking for the ball...because our backs are so f*&^ing **** we cant get the ball to him.

He absolutely would be in my England squad. Imagine even just bringing him off the bench to liven things up....

 

[Crash Hamster]

England have the raw materials for a "we're gonna score one more than you" team which would sell out stadia and frighten the pants off any opposing side. All the ingredients are there; good finishing position (though depressing performance) in the World Cup, a load of old players retiring, new coaches. Time for the 'mighty, mighty England' arrogance to come back.

Won't happen, of course; Bostik likes 'exciting' hookers like Theo Dan and 'boring' wingers who can chase a box kick. Something is arse about face somewhere and we're in danger of wasting a potential golden generation.

(Yes, I'm aware that France kick a lot, but I'd far rather England lost while playing like France than nicked a game by a point thanks to the #Iceman...)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England have the raw materials for a "we're gonna score one more than you" team which would sell out stadia and frighten the pants off any opposing side. All the ingredients are there; good finishing position (though depressing performance) in the World Cup, a load of old players retiring, new coaches. Time for the 'mighty, mighty England' arrogance to come back.

Won't happen, of course; Bostik likes 'exciting' hookers like Theo Dan and 'boring' wingers who can chase a box kick. Something is arse about face somewhere and we're in danger of wasting a potential golden generation.

(Yes, I'm aware that France kick a lot, but I'd far rather England lost while playing like France than nicked a game by a point thanks to the #Iceman...)

Ok honestly does this style of rugby mentality really scare oppositions anymore than we are gonna physically smash you?

It's like in the prem thread people saying that when the ground hardens it will favour running rugby teams. BUT has that ever been the case? Outside of that one Quins year.

I don't get why England can't just play balanced rugby.

Also is this a golden generation or just England benefitting finally to have a proper academy system and pathway? We have some excellent players but not many scream generational player yet

 

[Saintjay]

Ok honestly does this style of rugby mentality really scare oppositions anymore than we are gonna physically smash you?

It's like in the prem thread people saying that when the ground hardens it will favour running rugby teams. BUT has that ever been the case? Outside of that one Quins year.

I don't get why England can't just play balanced rugby.

Also is this a golden generation or just England benefitting finally to have a proper academy system and pathway? We have some excellent players but not many scream generational player yet

We do balanced rugby. A fine Borthball balance between some times the 9 kicks it, some times the 10.

On a serious note Baxter hit the nail on the head in his article awhile back. Definitely not a golden generation as we couldn't find decent props if we grew them in a lab. There might be some great young players out there. I'm sure there is but England are so risk averse unless your 30 and can follow a game plan to the letter. You've got no hope as a young player.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Owen Farrell and Referee Luke Pearce Clash in Heated Premiership Encounter | Rugbydump

Owen Farrell clashes with referee Luke Pearce in a fiery Premiership match. Controversy unfolds as fans debate the exchange.

www.rugbydump.com

Regardless of whatever else may be true, Farrell has clearly got in the habit of rubbing multiple refs up the wrong way. Pearce was rude in his response but this is a consistent theme with Farrell, he is always on the wrong side of the ref and should not be captain.

 

[Which Tyler]

Owen Farrell and Referee Luke Pearce Clash in Heated Premiership Encounter | Rugbydump

Owen Farrell clashes with referee Luke Pearce in a fiery Premiership match. Controversy unfolds as fans debate the exchange.

www.rugbydump.com

Regardless of whatever else may be true, Farrell has clearly got in the habit of rubbing multiple refs up the wrong way. Pearce was rude in his response but this is a consistent theme with Farrell, he is always on the wrong side of the ref and should not be captain.

I'm with Pearce there - and not just in response to Farrell.
Loads of players, and captains do that - and IMO it's rude of them, they're telling the ref how to do their job.

There are alternative ways of making your point - there's a big difference between saying "how many is that now sir?" and "that's 3 at the maul!"
There's a big difference between "was he onside there sir?" and "he was offside there!"

Hell, you can even do it during play without talking "to" the ref. "How many is that Maro?"

 

[Crash Hamster]

Ok honestly does this style of rugby mentality really scare oppositions anymore than we are gonna physically smash you?

It's certainly the sort of mentality which scares England, 'horses for courses' selections, countering opposing threats, picking 'good defensive' outside backs.

Also, as you rightly point out, we've not got a pack which is going to physically smash anyone, whereas we might just have a backline capable of scoring 35+ points a game if we picked some promising talents and let them bed in at international level. Couple that with a pack which does forward things reasonably competently and we have a recipe for exciting (and more often that not) winning rugby.

And that's the crux of my frustration with Bostik. There's a lot higher ceiling for England's backs than forwards at the moment; we should be copying Wales and bringing players through like they did with Adams and LRZ. Neither of them were complete players when they got their international breaks.

And it's not like we're looking to move up from 'winning the 6N' to 'back-to-back Grand Slams'; we need to get to 'top half of the table' from 'embarrassing'...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's certainly the sort of mentality which scares England, 'horses for courses' selections, countering opposing threats, picking 'good defensive' outside backs.

Also, as you rightly point out, we've not got a pack which is going to physically smash anyone, whereas we might just have a backline capable of scoring 35+ points a game if we picked some promising talents and let them bed in at international level. Couple that with a pack which does forward things reasonably competently and we have a recipe for exciting (and more often that not) winning rugby.

And that's the crux of my frustration with Bostik. There's a lot higher ceiling for England's backs than forwards at the moment; we should be copying Wales and bringing players through like they did with Adams and LRZ. Neither of them were complete players when they got their international breaks.

And it's not like we're looking to move up from 'winning the 6N' to 'back-to-back Grand Slams'; we need to get to 'top half of the table' from 'embarrassing'...

I don't think we do have a backline to score 35+ points in a international.
We don't have the size of the fijian backline to play like them
We don't have the pack of Ireland and France to have backs that play like that.
France play exciting rugby but have an amazing pack to back them up.
We don't have the skillset and balance of the NZ backline

We need our pack do be able to be on par with at least 9/10 International teams before thinking of playing fast and loose

Wales shouldn't be the aim here.

Don't get me wrong we should be playing younger wingers because well they are the actual form wingers ATM, but the style of rugby shouldn't change too much to just fit in with the wingers. It's not prem rugby despite what people act like Quins, Bristol and Saints trophies really highlight it.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I feel if the RFU had just waited a season to decide on the next England coach I suspect Alex Sanderson might have actually been a potential front runner.

Sanderson and Forshaw combo.

Unlike Leicester and Borthwick, Sanderson and Sale do have the most all game plan I feel, and one that England have the International quality players to play like.

One thing that is kinda crazy is England have yet to get a real monster number 8 like Dan Du Preez and Jasper Wiese mould, guess Tom Willis is closest but even he isn't at that level of explosiveness.
I think that's why CCS gets hyped up so much as he's viewed as actually having that potentially in terms of just size. Earl is fine and IMO could well become a Savea type 8 but Sarries are not going to play him there sadly.

 

[Crash Hamster]

*lots of suggestions about what we're not good at*

Wales shouldn't be the aim here.

Maybe it should, judging by recent 6Nperformances.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Maybe it should, judging by recent 6Nperformances.

Didn't England finish above Wales and beat them in Cardiff? or did I imagine that?

 

[Crash Hamster]

Didn't England finish above Wales and beat them in Cardiff? or did I imagine that?

Gosh, so we did!

You'd expect that, given the difference in resources; what I meant was Wales' policy of bringing through exciting young talent which wasn't the finished article; Dyer would be the latest one off the production line, but see also the two lads at Exeter. Maybe it's a case of having to pick underdeveloped players due to a limited pool to select from, but it does seem to produce some decent internationals in due course.

England seem to be stuck in the 'don't select them until they're complete players'/the Premiership doesn't develop complete players' paradox (with weird exceptions for some 'cap them young/dispose of them quickly' players like OHC.) England cricket went down this road with picking one cap wonders against the then-fearsome West Indies pace attack, then dropping them when they didn't perform brilliantly first game.

If we lack the monster pack of yesteryear, surely it's easier to develop a back line than make forwards bigger and uglier?

 

[Saintjay]

Gosh, so we did!

You'd expect that, given the difference in resources; what I meant was Wales' policy of bringing through exciting young talent which wasn't the finished article; Dyer would be the latest one off the production line, but see also the two lads at Exeter. Maybe it's a case of having to pick underdeveloped players due to a limited pool to select from, but it does seem to produce some decent internationals in due course.

England seem to be stuck in the 'don't select them until they're complete players'/the Premiership doesn't develop complete players' paradox (with weird exceptions for some 'cap them young/dispose of them quickly' players like OHC.) England cricket went down this road with picking one cap wonders against the then-fearsome West Indies pace attack, then dropping them when they didn't perform brilliantly first game.

If we lack the monster pack of yesteryear, surely it's easier to develop a back line than make forwards bigger and uglier?

I think the problem for England is we can put together a pretty decent / exciting back line easily enough. Other than the selection dilemma at 12/13. England are pretty much stacked at back three, and back row. It's the tactics and the 10 for those tactics that are still the issue.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Owen Farrell and Referee Luke Pearce Clash in Heated Premiership Encounter | Rugbydump

Owen Farrell clashes with referee Luke Pearce in a fiery Premiership match. Controversy unfolds as fans debate the exchange.

www.rugbydump.com

Regardless of whatever else may be true, Farrell has clearly got in the habit of rubbing multiple refs up the wrong way. Pearce was rude in his response but this is a consistent theme with Farrell, he is always on the wrong side of the ref and should not be captain.

I've got no issue with what Farrell initially said to Pearce or Pearce's response. If people are getting upset by that it's time to pack up and take up tiddlywinks.

Farrell's subsequent retort is silly though. Temperament is one reason he shouldn't be skipper, but the main reason is that it seems to affect his game - skipper, kicker, playmaker, off field stuff is too much especially coupled with a take on the world mindset. Guys like him and Mike Brown were the kind of spiky great lieutenants that you need but not cut out for leadership and ref diplomacy. Return him to the ranks and you may just see more of the Sarries Farrell in a white shirt. Who to take over, well there's….

 

[BPM]

How have the nuts and bolts 3/4 been doing...tearing it up ? No tries at the WC for nuts and bolts players
This is the problem with the English mentality, we don't pick players as they might make an error. On the other hand they might create or score multiple tries
What the "highlights players" also inadvertently do is the change how teams defend. It's so much easy to set a defence when you are 99% sure your not going to get gassed or stepped

Look at SAs back three, none are nuts and bolts players. It's definitely the case of both Willamse and Arendse that they are lacking at times in defence...yet they still played

Sure, but this debate started with Gabriel Ibitoye …

As @Not Mike Brown's Sock said, good player but a good way back in a list of back three options.

I am 100% behind bringing in new wingers, but Ibitoye isn't one I'd be championing.

 

[LIONSxv]

Sure, but this debate started with Gabriel Ibitoye …

As @Not Mike Brown's Sock said, good player but a good way back in a list of back three options.

I am 100% behind bringing in new wingers, but Ibitoye isn't one I'd be championing.

I'd give him a go, he is massively improved this season, particularly his chase. He is amongst 4/5 that could be brought in to add some X factor.
Players can improve and mature. Murley and Radwan would be near the top of that list. Although I suspect borthwick will be after height or size in his wingers...he is that old fashioned

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How have the nuts and bolts 3/4 been doing...tearing it up ? No tries at the WC for nuts and bolts players
This is the problem with the English mentality, we don't pick players as they might make an error. On the other hand they might create or score multiple tries
What the "highlights players" also inadvertently do is the change how teams defend. It's so much easy to set a defence when you are 99% sure your not going to get gassed or stepped

Look at SAs back three, none are nuts and bolts players. It's definitely the case of both Willamse and Arendse that they are lacking at times in defence...yet they still played

SA also have the best pack in world rugby, established centres, and play a massively kicking focus attacking game plan which no one wants

 

[BPM]

I'd give him a go, he is massively improved this season, particularly his chase. He is amongst 4/5 that could be brought in to add some X factor.
Players can improve and mature. Murley and Radwan would be near the top of that list. Although I suspect borthwick will be after height or size in his wingers...he is that old fashioned

Yes, but Murley and Radwan have a few season's worth of sustained form. Ibitoye's had a few good games. He's not bigger than them or better than either of them in any aspect. I'd also question his mentality after Agen and Tel Aviv Heat. Maybe those experiences have grounded him, maybe not …

If we're looking for wildcards who've shown a lot of improvement, Reed would be a better, more deserving option.

Personally I think we have the option of going for one more powerful, bigger winger and one smaller, elusive option. A little like Scotland have with DvdM and Graham. Ideally I'd like Freeman and Murley although he former is currently doing well at 13.

 

[LIONSxv]

Yes, but Murley and Radwan have a few season's worth of sustained form. Ibitoye's had a few good games. He's not bigger than them or better than either of them in any aspect. I'd also question his mentality after Agen and Tel Aviv Heat. Maybe those experiences have grounded him, maybe not …

If we're looking for wildcards who've shown a lot of improvement, Reed would be a better, more deserving option.

Personally I think we have the option of going for one more powerful, bigger winger and one smaller, elusive option. A little like Scotland have with DvdM and Graham. Ideally I'd like Freeman and Murley although he former is currently doing well at 13.

I'd say without looking that Ibotoye would be quite a lot heavier than both. He certainly carries well in contact. With him he has always had the raw ingredients but has not had the correct mentality. This looks to have changed this season

I'd have Freeman and Murley, Radwan and Arundell all in a wider squad. With Freeman also covering 13. We all know that this is unlikely to happen and we will most likely end up with a back three of Daly, Steward and Malins