[RWC2023] Australia vs Fiji (17/09/2023)

[ncurd]

I'm honestly curious about this, what are people's thoughts on Eddie as a coach then? I get why England fans are not keen, but I don't think he's terrible or anything.

His record is great especially in regards to short term impact. But he certainly doesn't seam to have staying power over longer than a RWC cycle.

I'm surprised Australia bothered with him this close to a world cup though.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm honestly curious about this, what are people's thoughts on Eddie as a coach then? I get why England fans are not keen, but I don't think he's terrible or anything.

Good coach, hard task-master, sometimes thinks he's cleverer than he is. Or possibly that the players are

 

[miccloarch]

Eddie Jones was the best coach in the world when England were at their peak (2016-17 ish). Best winning record of any England coach ever. His innovations with the Brumbies are still part of the game today. Better than Steve Hansen ever was, not as good as Rassie.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

you hear about coaches having the game pass them by all the time. He clearly was a very good coach. Things fell apart at England after 2019 and I thought the project just came to an end. However, it seems he's struggling with what should be his best period in Australia.

Most coaches don't go out on top.

 

[Reiser99]

For England, especially towards the end he seemed to be a very poor man manager and did not create a good working environment. Burning through coaches, publicly criticising players etc...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm honestly curious about this, what are people's thoughts on Eddie as a coach then? I get why England fans are not keen, but I don't think he's terrible or anything.

He seems to be a very hard coach and demands a lot of his players and assistants. The issue seems to be he has no recognition or care for the limits of others. It's his way or you get dumped on the scrapheap. Even the best coaches can be wrong and it seems he just couldn't accept that he isn't the all-seeing guru of rugby he thinks he is. He's undoubtedly very skilled but his ego just eclipses everything. After any length of time, the ego seems to just dominate all decision making and by then the teams are in decline but it's everyone else's fault.

I imagine when he's got his tactics right and the team are all on board, he can get fantastic results. It's when things have to change from that that he seems unable to turn it around. Once the slide begins, it just keeps going.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

For England, especially towards the end he seemed to be a very poor man manager and did not create a good working environment. Burning through coaches, publicly criticising players etc...

There was a post on Reddit yesterday saying the same - apparently when he left Australia the first time the players were shells of the players they were and it took the incoming coaches ages to get them going again

Edit:
This convo:

I'm utterly convinced that the discipline issue stems from the pressure and fear he has his players playing under. They are not desperate to win for the right reasons they so desperate because it's going to be ******* torturous if they fail. That desperation leads to panic and leads to errors. Too many people in the game say the same thing about him and his effect on players for it to be untrue.

And this is why he was sacked as Wallabies coach in 2006. John Connolly called the players 'broken down sheep dogs' when he started with them after Eddie. Stellar move from RA to go back to this.

You look at SA, France, Scotland and Ireland and you can visibly tell the players want to be there and want to play well. So many interviews with players in Australia either outright saying Jones is toxic, defending his toxicity, or saying his style works for them. I'm sure at this point they've lost faith in him as a coach

All rings very true, especially with the stories of him berating young players in front of the entire squad until they broke down, and mocking assistant coaches etc.

 

[Derpus]

No one but the chairman wanted him back in Aus. Says it all, doesnt it? We were much better under Rennie but... still pretty damn bad.

 

[Joe 90]

There was a post on Reddit yesterday saying the same - apparently when he left Australia the first time the players were shells of the players they were and it took the incoming coaches ages to get them going again

Edit:
This convo:






All rings very true, especially with the stories of him berating young players in front of the entire squad until they broke down, and mocking assistant coaches etc.

He sounds awful...he sure wrecked England...but senior management were seemingly very happy....so they went and found and even worse one and gave it to him.... Borewick....

 

[dirty harry]

The scary part is, Fiji are doing what people have wanted for a generation, they are retaining ball, playing smarter and more European than ever before. When that is added to freakish ball carrying, strength at the breakdown, and then a decent kicking game it's hard to stop.

When you consider the way Aus should never have been allowed the first try, Fiji unlucky not to be allowed to score their 2nd non try (the SH run through I get why was pulled back because he purposefully hit the player on the floor), if they somehow get the rub of the green from a ref instead of constant big defining moments go against them, they could be unstoppable.

That said, I really do question their ability to get 2 more 5 pointers, with the emotional energy used in the last 7 days, injury just starting, and Georgia written off I can see a few errors creeping in. I hope I'm wrong, and Wales beating Aus takes the pressure off Fiji, but I just think if 1 team is to miss out by a fine margin Fiji may well be that team.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The scary part is, Fiji are doing what people have wanted for a generation, they are retaining ball, playing smarter and more European than ever before. When that is added to freakish ball carrying, strength at the breakdown, and then a decent kicking game it's hard to stop.

When you consider the way Aus should never have been allowed the first try, Fiji unlucky not to be allowed to score their 2nd non try (the SH run through I get why was pulled back because he purposefully hit the player on the floor), if they somehow get the rub of the green from a ref instead of constant big defining moments go against them, they could be unstoppable.

That said, I really do question their ability to get 2 more 5 pointers, with the emotional energy used in the last 7 days, injury just starting, and Georgia written off I can see a few errors creeping in. I hope I'm wrong, and Wales beating Aus takes the pressure off Fiji, but I just think if 1 team is to miss out by a fine margin Fiji may well be that team.

It's been one of the more frustrating aspects of Fiji, they have a lot of raw talent and physical ability but mentally were very poor. There was often little cohesion, poor decision making and a tendency to implode once things went wrong, they were never able to regain control once a game slipped. They still have the tendency to constantly look for miracle balls but that bit of pragmatism and control in their play is really paying dividends and I hope it is something they can build on.

 

[Ferrari333SP]

 

[IT157]

Good stuff. Not surprised Fiji kicked in this game more than England did against Japan.

 

[dirty harry]

Hey look, I love a square space advert sprinkled with a topping of rugby as much as the next man, and Squidge clearly puts a lot of work into his videos...

But I get frustrated by his clear lack of experience in the game. He constantly attributes actions to tactical awareness, and gameplan, without considering fatigue, mistakes, emotion, or inexperience.

having worked with analysis teams they do similar, they get obsessed numbers on a screen, they have no feel for momentum, they have no view of all the work that goes into coaching decision making, culture, skillset or technical ability.

I find his videos entertaining, and let's be honest his tactical awareness of teams is very good, especially as they are self taught (I've spent maybe hundreds of hours analysing poor quality U20's, club games from shaky cams on bad angles in bad weather, it's not easy) but it really gets to me when he makes tactical claims from lazy play, or attributes luck to gameplan.

Also hes obsessed with Folau, its bordering harassment at this point lol, he brings him up in every video!

 

[Professor X]

Our number 4 best kicker from the Drua, Simione Kuruvoli, was our Trojan horse in bringing the Aussies down with his goal conversion. We are quite amazed how calm he was in slotting those goals as this is his first World Cup.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Hey look, I love a square space advert sprinkled with a topping of rugby as much as the next man, and Squidge clearly puts a lot of work into his videos...

But I get frustrated by his clear lack of experience in the game. He constantly attributes actions to tactical awareness, and gameplan, without considering fatigue, mistakes, emotion, or inexperience.

having worked with analysis teams they do similar, they get obsessed numbers on a screen, they have no feel for momentum, they have no view of all the work that goes into coaching decision making, culture, skillset or technical ability.

I find his videos entertaining, and let's be honest his tactical awareness of teams is very good, especially as they are self taught (I've spent maybe hundreds of hours analysing poor quality U20's, club games from shaky cams on bad angles in bad weather, it's not easy) but it really gets to me when he makes tactical claims from lazy play, or attributes luck to gameplan.

Also hes obsessed with Folau, its bordering harassment at this point lol, he brings him up in every video!

All fair. Except Folau can errr, **** right off into the ******* sun

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

Fiji played well and deserved their victory. Australia are a confused side. The (aimless) kicking near the end by Australia sums them up.

 

[dirty harry]

All fair. Except Folau can errr, **** right off into the ******* sun

See now this erks me. Having met the guy a few times, including when he was supporting an LGBT youth homelessness drive. I have to say he was a nice guy.

I wont get into the hypocrisy of his demonetisation, but I have to stand up for human rights, and against this current trend of employers, banks, social media companies, governments etc all banding together to ruin the life of someone they disagree with.

I think people would be amazed by the amount of rugby players who support him behind closed doors, I've seen some very prominent internationals do so.

Ok so back to the rugby lol

 

[Which Tyler]

Wait, so you think that employers should be obliged to extend the contract of someone who breaches contract in making an explicit stand against their declared principles?
Because of human rights; but not the human rights of pepole that individual thinks should go to hell to burn for all eternity?

He wasn't fired for having beliefs - he's perfectly entitled to do that; he was fired for sharing them publicly in breach of contract, and even then, was given chance(s) to take it back to private.
I also fail to see how it ruined his life, given that he's still a highly paid international rugby player - as opposed to those who's lives are actually ruined, by things like suicide or beatings that result from the things he was saying.

It really doesn't matter how many, or how prominent people agree with him in private - it's the public utterances that are damaging.

Trust me - suicide and GBH are more damaging to the affected individual than losing one job and waltzing into another.


ETA: As for "human rights" - are you saying that he has the right to say (whilst no-one's denying his right to say) that homosexuals (and others) should go to hell to burn for all eternity; but anyone who disagrees doesn't have the right to say that they disagree?

 

[dirty harry]

Wait, so you think that employers should be obliged to extend the contract of someone who breaches contract in making an explicit stand against their declared principles?
Because of human rights; but not the human rights of pepole that individual thinks should go to hell to burn for all eternity?

He wasn't fired for having beliefs - he's perfectly entitled to do that; he was fired for sharing them publicly in breach of contract, and even then, was given chance(s) to take it back to private.
I also fail to see how it ruined his life, given that he's still a highly paid international rugby player - as opposed to those who's lives are actually ruined, by things like suicide or beatings that result from the things he was saying.

It really doesn't matter how many, or how prominent people agree with him in private - it's the public utterances that are damaging.

Trust me - suicide and GBH are more damaging to the affected individual than losing one job and waltzing into another.


ETA: As for "human rights" - are you saying that he has the right to say (whilst no-one's denying his right to say) that homosexuals (and others) should go to hell to burn for all eternity; but anyone who disagrees doesn't have the right to say that they disagree?

See this is where I was trying not to go, but that comment made so many crazy assumptions and wild links lol

It is very important to be very accurate in this conversation, and not let emotions run wild and blind you.

1. Noone extended any contract, they terminated the contract. The argument could be made by many that they terminated his contract on religious beliefs.

2. Did you just claim that all the people on Folaus stupid burn in hell list, have a human right to go to heaven hahahaha

3. Sharing beliefs publicly is 100% a human right, it's called freedom of expression. And includes 'freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers'

Article 19 is very explicit about this.

4. Can you name me those people who lost their job because of Folaus dumb religious rant listing all those people who are going to burn in hell? Btw there is only one group of people on that list anyone cares about, I'm on the list, why arent you angry about you being there lol

5. Source trust me isnt something you want to start a very serious discussion with. You never know if your talking to an LGBT charity lawyer who specialises in protected status and human rights abuses.

I'll use your 2 specific examples briefly.

1. Suicide rate amongst LGBT people isnt that high, its 4th on the character list in the UK. The attempted rate is 4 times higher than any group though. Meaning children and young people who identify as LGBT between the age of 16 and 22 are 4 times more likely to attempt suicide as a man aged 42-48. However men aged 42-48 actually die at a rate of 50% more.
Now I wont go into all the research and studies on the reasons for attempting suicide, there are 4 main categories, 3 of which are attempts to not die, but I will say attempt rate and completion rate are very different.

2. GBH is very high in the LGBT community, most physical assaults occur within relationships. The highest risk of random GBH in public is young men aged 16-22. By FAR.

I advise you dont just watch the news and reiterate unfounded ideas, I suggest you do foundation research, understand the real struggles of the LGBT community, the mental health issues, the lack of stable homes, the lack of access to accurate medical attention, ACEs, childhood traumas, mental illness, criminality, the role of social media, and influence from destructive 'influencers' and body dysmorphia etc.. then you'll realise a random religious man speaking about his thousand year old book has absolutely no utterance on the daily life of an LGBT individual.

Trust me, I hold around table of homeless LGBT youths, and we all unify at laughing at Folaus comments!

Apologies for the rant, I'll happily delete these posts if they derail from rugby