[RWC2023] Wales vs Australia (24/09/2023)

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I used to think the "don't play your final before the final" thing was bullshit until I heard some of the smarter athletes talk about what it was like. It's not they players are purposely choosing to not try in certain games but rather it's just really hard to get into that zone on a frequent basis.

England faced a similar criticism for the 2019 New Zealand semi final (I wasn't a believer in emotional energy at the time) but that was a one week turn around so Ireland do have more time. I do think that South Africa did reveal an outpouring of emotion as well after the game so I would express similar doubts about their knockout hopes. They are essentially guaranteed a spot in the knockouts though.

France and New Zealand seemed to treat that first game as a prologue rather than a clash of the ***ans.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Wales put a very poor Australian side away. Their defense was good. Australia don't have a general on the field, who take take the players to task. As for Eddie Jones, his mouth is ruining not only his coaching ability, but the image of the Australian team. He really needs to reign it in. David Campese was right. If Eddie takes all the attention away from the team upon himself, then the team won't know/or be able to take responsibility for themselves.

It's definitely a tough balance as always between giving credit to the dominant team on the one hand or on the other hand chalking up to the other team being awful.
I found this Australian performance baffling because in the first 15 - 20 they appeared to have all the right building blocks in place for a decent performance. But it's almost as if they expected things to go wrong and the moment it started to wobble they gave into it. Their early go forwards ball and set piece appeared to be better than Englands. But some basic skills, and decision making, and execution were going wrong as the game went on. A lot of those things should be fixable. It definitely speaks to a really unsettled culture who don't feel right and who have zero confidence.

 

[ncurd]

Don't do an RFU

Eddie Jones: Australia sacking under-fire coach is 'the worst thing' they can do, says Stirling Mortlock

Sacking Eddie Jones would be "the worst thing" Australia could do despite their troubles at the Rugby World Cup, says former captain Stirling Mortlock.

www.bbc.com

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is an awkward position to be in - tear off the bandaid now and bring someone new in for the RWC cycle or put faith in him that he can actually deliver on a 4.5yr plan?
How much would it cost in severance pay to bin him?
Who's available to come in?

 

[BenniMarco]

Don't get carried away, you played a terrible Aussie team and the Ref was outrageously biased against Fiji.

How am I getting carried away though?

I really wouldn't say that, you deserved a card long before you got one and that would of really changed the impact of the game. Plus the fact Fiji got a card for significantly less.

I don't think Wales were terrible but reality is Fiji with a better kicker or a ref that was policing Wales properly for multiple red zone infringements and the outcome is probably diffrent.

I also wouldn't write off Argentina they completely fluffed it against England but they can cause a lot of trouble.

Wales are looking good though in this one match and on the right trajectory for an underserved semi-final (anyone on this side of the draw should be out in the QF's).

Biggar missed some kicks too.

I accept Fiji got hard done by from refereeing decisions, but doesn't mean they would have won. Seems like people have selective memories and think only the last 10 minutes of that game happened. I can tell Wales aren't very represented on here by the bias against us here, nor liked. But come on, people need to chill out about the ref decisions from that game. Wasn't as bad as being made out in terms of Fiji certainly winning etc

It's not hard to see that Fiji got the yellow because it stopped a certain try. If you compare each offence that was probably the most obvious and clear one. The ones Wales committed were blatant and stacked up, but none had the obvious stand out feel about it. Doesn't justify the decision making but helps explain some of the why.

Either way whatever happens, let's see how we deal with similar pressure to what Fiji gave us at the end. Not a lot of point looking back, let's see how we both deal with it moving forward.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Is an awkward position to be in - tear off the bandaid now and bring someone new in for the RWC cycle or put faith in him that he can actually deliver on a 4.5yr plan?
How much would it cost in severance pay to bin him?
Who's available to come in?

Agree, very difficult decision with no obviously right or wrong answer. And you've got all the extreme and unhelpful takes flying in from Stirling Mortlock, David Campese etc, which naturally each argue for different things. I guess you could argue that it's fairly low risk if they want to give him an extra year or something to see progress, given we are back at the beginning now. In a way it will be a blessing in disguise if EJ makes the decision for them by going to Japan.

 

[ncurd]

It's not hard to see that Fiji got the yellow because it stopped a certain try.

No it did not because it wasn't a penalty try.

 

[SG59_]

This is a man that called Wales a "**** little place" and is trying to coach Japan - a country known for being incredibly respectful. Don't do it Japan.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

This is a man that called Wales a "**** little place" and is trying to coach Japan - a country known for being incredibly respectful. Don't do it Japan.

You realised he has already coached them yes?

 

[SG59_]

You realised he has already coached them yes?

Yes, but that was a while ago now. Unless I just wasn't aware of it at the time, he seems to have gotten a lot worse in his behaviour and attitude.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I did think the 'I don't know what you're talking about mate' was a poor choice of stock response. Not going to comment on that would be better, but pretending it hasn't happened feels wrong and furthers his reputation as a gas-lighting knob

I think Jones and Aus will agree to mutually part ways

 

[RedruthRFC]

It's not hard to see that Fiji got the yellow because it stopped a certain try. If you compare each offence that was probably the most obvious and clear one. The ones Wales committed were blatant and stacked up, but none had the obvious stand out feel about it. Doesn't justify the decision making but helps explain some of the why.

This smacks of bias too. If it stopped a certain try, even Carley would have awarded a penalty try.

Edit: apologies - I missed the post above saying the same thing when I hit reply.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

In sport emotion is a limited resource so the question is whether they can recover and rebuild themselves up for a month.

Interesting take. I am not convinced it works like that tho. Maybe it's my latin blood and I'm probably wrong but you could argue emotions feed other emotions. Or that positive ones could drive damaging ones out. They could also boost confidence.

I couldnt help thinking about Argentina beating France in 2007's opening game. I remember because the sec the ref blew the whistle Pichot gathered everyone and tried to calm things with 'take it easy, this is nothing but the first step' sort of phrases. Lads listened for a min and then went mental anyway.
Or other sports: Argentina beating Mexico last world cup in Qatar was one of the most celebrated moments for us. Batshit-crazy-losing-our-marbles material. It was unquestionably THE inflecion point in our for us. And if you look at it standalone it was a 'meh' moment at best. Almost inconsequential. But, after that, every arg i know, heard, read or talked to became reasonably confident against every opponent we faced. Our playing improved a lot too.

It is very, very, very difficult to distinguish 'happiness' from 'tension release' in celebrations, if not impossible. I can see how the release of pressure can improve a team's performance. I can also guess the amount of pressure on Ireland right now must be gigantic. History hasnt been particularly kind on them, they suffer from cronic peaking-too-early and their fan base has been religiously loyal.
I guess not wanting to disappoint them builds up.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I'm not really talking about the emotion you show after the game but rather the emotion you put into the game.

 

[dirty harry]

I really wouldn't say that, you deserved a card long before you got one and that would of really changed the impact of the game. Plus the fact Fiji got a card for significantly less.

I don't think Wales were terrible but reality is Fiji with a better kicker or a ref that was policing Wales properly for multiple red zone infringements and the outcome is probably diffrent.

I also wouldn't write off Argentina they completely fluffed it against England but they can cause a lot of trouble.

Wales are looking good though in this one match and on the right trajectory for an underserved semi-final (anyone on this side of the draw should be out in the QF's).

This is a very typically emotive response to a result. Every study on memory confirms there is an overriding emotion that dogs memory that occurs at the end of each game, that combined with the fact we only ever remember up to 40% of each game accurately, it means your memory has let you down.

I've researched that game a few times, not to mention put it through some analysis software... ref had actually allowed a lot from Fijian scrums, sealing a few, diving over the top a few, taking players off their feet outside the ruck etc.

Until 67 mins Wales were dominant, especially between 40 and 64 mins, 17 points unanswered, possession, territory and the yellow for Fiji was a stone cold.

Where I agree Wales probably should have had another yellow late on, noone understands the nature of the penalties, the variety of what they were, where they occurred, AND that Wales had a yellow for repeat. Fiji killed a stone cold try a few metres out, Wales were penalised on the fringe of offside, trapped on the wrong side of a ruck, a scrum etc...

Ultimately job was done, key players were all taken off early to prevent injury at 32 - 14 with 12 on the clock. That in anybody's opinion is not a position to win the game, meaning Fiji werent in the position to win.

Had semi made the final catch, had the fastest man on the pitch not caught him, had he fought off the contact to score in the corner, and had the poor goal kicker converted from the touchline then Fiji would have 100% have deserved to win. But they were so small odds, from a miracle comeback.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'm not really talking about the emotion you show after the game but rather the emotion you put into the game.

How would you gauge that?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

This is a very typically emotive response to a result. Every study on memory confirms there is an overriding emotion that dogs memory that occurs at the end of each game, that combined with the fact we only ever remember up to 40% of each game accurately, it means your memory has let you down.

I've researched that game a few times, not to mention put it through some analysis software... ref had actually allowed a lot from Fijian scrums, sealing a few, diving over the top a few, taking players off their feet outside the ruck etc.

Until 67 mins Wales were dominant, especially between 40 and 64 mins, 17 points unanswered, possession, territory and the yellow for Fiji was a stone cold.

Where I agree Wales probably should have had another yellow late on, noone understands the nature of the penalties, the variety of what they were, where they occurred, AND that Wales had a yellow for repeat. Fiji killed a stone cold try a few metres out, Wales were penalised on the fringe of offside, trapped on the wrong side of a ruck, a scrum etc...

Ultimately job was done, key players were all taken off early to prevent injury at 32 - 14 with 12 on the clock. That in anybody's opinion is not a position to win the game, meaning Fiji werent in the position to win.

Had semi made the final catch, had the fastest man on the pitch not caught him, had he fought off the contact to score in the corner, and had the poor goal kicker converted from the touchline then Fiji would have 100% have deserved to win. But they were so small odds, from a miracle comeback.

It's an 80 minute game though, and whenever a Northern Hemisphere beats a PI team we tend to say that their superior fitness and togetherness showed in the end when their opponent started to tire. By the same token it's weird to cut the game off after 67 minutes.

Before that point, I agree Wales were good value for the win, but hardly dominant at all. After a full 80, I personally believe Fiji deserved to win but personally I wouldn't ever try and say Wales were totally undeserving winners.

On the victory lap thing - personally I'm only bothered by it when I have genuine questions about the teams psychology, the balance of confidence versus arrogance, and sense of proportion. For England sides of the past such as under MJ, you just had zero confidence that they weren't getting carried away. With the current Ireland team I have no worries about them getting ahead of their Skis. With Wales I don't either really as they are a Gatland side, but equally some of their players annoy me so....

 

[ncurd]

This is a very typically emotive response to a result. Every study on memory confirms there is an overriding emotion that dogs memory that occurs at the end of each game, that combined with the fact we only ever remember up to 40% of each game accurately, it means your memory has let you down.

I've researched that game a few times, not to mention put it through some analysis software... ref had actually allowed a lot from Fijian scrums, sealing a few, diving over the top a few, taking players off their feet outside the ruck etc.

Okay lets put aside I wasn't drinking and the match was between 3pm and 5pm my time. My memory is usually pretty damn good, I also like you've done your research and put it through "analysis software". But have claimed subjective things like what the ref allowed Fiji to do.

Until 67 mins Wales were dominant, especially between 40 and 64 mins, 17 points unanswered, possession, territory and the yellow for Fiji was a stone cold. [

Your conflating stats here it was 17 unanswered points between 19 and 64 but reality is it was 24 between 19 and 73. your making a point but badly. Probably to make Wales look better than they were.

Fiji killed a stone cold try a few metres out,

First according to the ref and TMO it did not require review for a penalty try. You do realise that's the laws of the game if a try is certain to be scored it requires the awarding of a peanlty try. I havn't seen a single Welsh fan until today claim there should of been one awarded like you are now. Because that's what you mena by stone cold try a few meters out.

One thing where I'm certain my memory isn't fading is many observers were wondering was why Wales weren't getting a yellow for repeat infringements before the Fiji one. Its why so many were angry at it so considering people were calling for a Wales YC before 65min you have to ask the question how Wales were dominant for 67 as per your assertion.

Ultimately job was done, key players were all taken off early to prevent injury at 32 - 14 with 12 on the clock.

All the subs bar one was made at 63mins the score with 17 on the clock, the score was 25-14.

So yeah calling bullshit on the detailed analysis you did this took me all of 15 mins.

 

[dirty harry]

Okay lets put aside I wasn't drinking and the match was between 3pm and 5pm my time. My memory is usually pretty damn good,

Dont take it personally, these are studies compiled on elite coaches, and testing the accuracy of critical events. Most coaches fall short of 50% accuracy, and the best elite coaches barely manage above 50%.

Phil Jackson is notorious for not relying on his memory until hes reviewed a game a few times.

 

[ncurd]

Okay lets put aside I wasn't drinking and the match was between 3pm and 5pm my time. My memory is usually pretty damn good,

Dont take it personally, these are studies compiled on elite coaches, and testing the accuracy of critical events. Most coaches fall short of 50% accuracy, and the best elite coaches barely manage above 50%.

Phil Jackson is notorious for not relying on his memory until hes reviewed a game a few times.

I wasn't taking it personally it was just a preamble before showing you how half of what you were saying was wrong or obfuscations of the facts.