[RWC2023] Wales vs Australia (24/09/2023)

[dirty harry]

'That's not what i saw. I saw a team who couldn't even find the city with a map and a tour guide, let alone the house, kitchen or sink.'

I get that view, but they dominated ball and territory first 20, invited by Wales granted, but if you re watch they really did have a crack at opening Wales up. This pressure was highlighted by the disappointment after the Arnold break and deciding to go to the corner instead of 3 points.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I find it baffling, the idea that Aus could have done much to have changed the nature of the game.

From the first scrum it was clear Gareth Thomas had slipper on toast, however he was being too aggressive and coming up.

I think Gatland may well have just pulled a master stroke, analysing both Fiji and Australia, and playing to their strengths from the off. It seems like suicide kicking the ball to world class backs and saying come and have a go if you think your hard enough.

Gatland expected a reaction from aus, and handed them keys to the car and said drive, they threw the kitchen sink at Wales first 25 mins and after that they were bust. You could tell heads were down, the pack especially was defeated.

I think it's time Wales received some credit for their improvements under Gatland, favourites for wooden spoon, and supposedly in a dog fight to qualify...

I dont think England or Argentina fancy facing Wales now, and I'm going to put my neck on the line and say I dont think SA or France fancy playing Wales either, this Welsh gameplan is designed to smother, exhaust and suckerpunch, and both of those attacks are based on brute force.

All that said, I dont think Ireland have anything to worry about lol

Hmm I think you are overstating things a bit here. Where I agree is that Wales were very good last night and deserve real credit, including how they adapted (and improved?) when Biggar went off. On the back of this, I would see them as favourites against both Argentina and England (I already did to be fair, but possibly more so now) But I haven't seen enough that would make SA or France fear Wales, nowhere near to be honest. This isn't a new Wales or anything, it's very much the blueprint of Gatlands Wales of yesteryear.

You're also omitting that Wales were dire against Portugal and should have lost against Fiji by all rights. I wouldn't call that a Gatland masterclass. And incidentally some people are comparing his newness to the role to Borthwick and Jones which is wrong, he may have only been back for a short time but he knows the setup and many of these players inside out, due to coaching them for 12 years.

 

[dirty harry]

Not even the contrarian in me believes i ended up defending Jones. Oh well, badge of shame i suppose.

I think its human nature, I spent maybe 45 mins defending Jones in the pub last night, albeit with grin from ear to ear.

IMHO coaches at the top level are of 2 moulds, the Pep master tactician, who demand of players, and the ROG friendly create autonomy and get out of the players way.

Jones seemingly is a bit of both and neither currently, he commands respect because of his RWC pedigree, but has undermined it with his actions, and when hes trying to strategise I think hes lost some punch to his words, while simultaneously asking the players to Express themselves after 2 or 3 caps lol.

Ultimately, Jones is a very successful coach, and I dont think hes driven Aus into the ground, I think he has ARU on side and they will build.... or they might sack him in a car park after the next game (who would be that evil eh?)

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Ultimately, Jones is a very successful coach, and I dont think hes driven Aus into the ground, I think he has ARU on side and they will build.... or they might sack him in a car park after the next game (who would be that evil eh?)

They're clearly much worse under him though relative to Rennie. It's also not a given that teams with a new coach need to immediately go backwards.
I also reckon he might be reaching an untenable position with the level of pressure + this Japan situation.

 

[dirty harry]

They're clearly much worse under him though relative to Rennie. It's also not a given that teams with a new coach need to immediately go backwards.
I also reckon he might be reaching an untenable position with the level of pressure + this Japan situation.

I still think there is more to come from the Japan interview situation...

Seems, fishy

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

'What if, hypothetically (i'm trying to give him ALL the benefit of the doubt), Eddie Jones was told 'dont do TOO bad in 2023, but the real goal is 2027's'

I think this is very important, I cant imagine a scenario where Hooper was left home after a minor injury in the RC, and the ARU having nothing to say about it. I think Jones was given Carte Blanche to build to the home 25 lions and 27 RWC. They NEED this for the sports existence

I cant imagine Australia going into a world cup in any sport without trying to win it. They probably go into the Olympic skiing qualification thinking they have a chance of getting gold.

 

[Joe 90]

Not here to defend Eddie but yesterday's performance was so bad, soooo dire that i don't believe all the blame should lie on him.
A winger grabs the ball in his 22, starts running sideways at slow speed, and then drops the ball out of nowhere... well that is not something i'd blame the coach for. You could argue he is responsible for selection, but i can't recall Koroibete doing something like that before. Or Carter missing touch. And sure, again with the selection thingie. Eddie is responsible for that. But these weren't strategic mistakes or missed tackles or stupid decisions made by the players. These are elementary things that most 16-year-olds playing amateur leagues get right 99% of the time.
I can't recall a performance like this and I watched Eng v Arg two weeks ago.

Most times when you watch a game you can tell whether a team is following the wrong strat or not. Or at least have a view on it. Too direct, kicking too much/not enough, playing too much with the fwds, too little, too frontal, not using the backs enough, etc. Sometimes you genuinely have no idea what the team is trying to do (again, Arg vs Eng). And on some very rare occasions, you get to witness a team that fails at absolutely everything they attempt to do. Everything. And not only do they fail, but they fail so miserably and so early in each play that it is impossible to even attempt to guess what they were trying to do. That was Aus yesterday.

Jones' man management is obviously worse than terrible, he reduces his teams confidence to near zero and that showed yesterday......he is a nasty bully. I just searched up 'Jones reduced junior players to tears'...you'll find loads of occasions where he destroyed peoples confidence...no wonder he left out senior players, as they might have told him where to go ......he is poison.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Dick

To be fair, as a Leicester fan he'd know all about simple game plans for simple minds.

 

[BenniMarco]

Hmm I think you are overstating things a bit here. Where I agree is that Wales were very good last night and deserve real credit, including how they adapted (and improved?) when Biggar went off. On the back of this, I would see them as favourites against both Argentina and England (I already did to be fair, but possibly more so now) But I haven't seen enough that would make SA or France fear Wales, nowhere near to be honest. This isn't a new Wales or anything, it's very much the blueprint of Gatlands Wales of yesteryear.

You're also omitting that Wales were dire against Portugal and should have lost against Fiji by all rights. I wouldn't call that a Gatland masterclass. And incidentally some people are comparing his newness to the role to Borthwick and Jones which is wrong, he may have only been back for a short time but he knows the setup and many of these players inside out, due to coaching them for 12 years.

I'd personally say the following is important to consider:
A) it was practically a Welsh second side against Portugal
B) overall performance wise against Fiji we were comfortable until the yellow card where we almost fluffed it. But learning from those mistakes is what matters as I think we would have been more comfortable in how we managed that if we played them now for example. But the performance against Fiji wasn't on the back of a number of great performances so it was still pleasing.

Obviously now let's see where we go with this. We are certainly going to struggle against the big 4, Ireland especially unfortunately since we could play them on a semi.

 

[Joe 90]

I cant imagine Australia going into a world cup in any sport without trying to win it. They probably go into the Olympic skiing qualification thinking they have a chance of getting gold.

never seen an Aussie team give up, or not care before...they all fight to the last second......Jones has ruined them, just like he did with England....Hell he has had six Captains.....that shows he doesn't want anyone standing up to him, he is a bully....

 

[Joe 90]

I'd personally say the following is important to consider:
A) it was practically a Welsh second side against Portugal
B) overall performance wise against Fiji we were comfortable until the yellow card where we almost fluffed it. But learning from those mistakes is what matters as I think we would have been more comfortable in how we managed that if we played them now for example. But the performance against Fiji wasn't on the back of a number of great performances so it was still pleasing.

Obviously now let's see where we go with this. We are certainly going to struggle against the big 4, Ireland especially unfortunately since we could play them on a semi.

Don't get carried away, you played a terrible Aussie team and the Ref was outrageously biased against Fiji.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Don't get carried away, you played a terrible Aussie team and the Ref was outrageously biased against Fiji.

Outrageously biased is incorrect. Try again.

 

[Welsh Exile]

To be honest, everything is going as I expected. I was quietly confident we'd beat a good Fiji side (with a few last mins doubts when I saw the team) and we were the better team for the majority of that match, deserved winners really looking back on it. Once that game was done the semi final was always on the cards as we always knew it was one of England or Argentina in the quarters who neither of which are anything to write home about and you'd back us in those type of games. Nothing has changed my mind that if we get to a semi and play a top 4 team we're getting done but everything going as expected so far to be fair.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As a coach myself I take every element of performance personally, mistakes from individuals are a result of my performance directly.

I really hope you don't mean that literally.

Every team has taken a lap at every game, win or lose. Nothing to criticise anyone with.

Agree. But thanking the fans is one thing. I think some people, including me, picked up on a very visible outpouring of emotion from the Irish players. It was a job very well done, but the question is whether they can lift themselves to that level, or higher, again or whether they had targeted that game too much from a long way out as we now hear Eng did vs NZ in 19 (a knockout game admittedly). For one, defeat will almost certainly spur the Boks on.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I agree with what VT is saying in that it seems that Ireland put a lot emotional energy into that game. In sport emotion is a limited resource so the question is whether they can recover and rebuild themselves up for a month. They have two weeks before a must win (or less by less than 7) match. La Rochelle wasn't able to rebuild up after the champions cup for the top 14 final and their whole thing is vibes.

Edit: I don't think Irish were arrogant for celebrating but they did look like they were celebrating reaching the summit when the journey finishes when you get back home alive.

 

[ncurd]

deserved winners really looking back on it

I really wouldn't say that, you deserved a card long before you got one and that would of really changed the impact of the game. Plus the fact Fiji got a card for significantly less.

I don't think Wales were terrible but reality is Fiji with a better kicker or a ref that was policing Wales properly for multiple red zone infringements and the outcome is probably diffrent.

I also wouldn't write off Argentina they completely fluffed it against England but they can cause a lot of trouble.

Wales are looking good though in this one match and on the right trajectory for an underserved semi-final (anyone on this side of the draw should be out in the QF's).

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

Wales put a very poor Australian side away. Their defense was good. Australia don't have a general on the field, who take take the players to task. As for Eddie Jones, his mouth is ruining not only his coaching ability, but the image of the Australian team. He really needs to reign it in. David Campese was right. If Eddie takes all the attention away from the team upon himself, then the team won't know/or be able to take responsbility for themselves.

 

[ncurd]

Australia don't have a general on the field, who take take the players to task.

Interestingly this has been the failing of England for many years. No leadership on the field.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I really wouldn't say that, you deserved a card long before you got one and that would of really changed the impact of the game. Plus the fact Fiji got a card for significantly less.

I don't think Wales were terrible but reality is Fiji with a better kicker or a ref that was policing Wales properly for multiple red zone infringements and the outcome is probably diffrent.

I also wouldn't write off Argentina they completely fluffed it against England but they can cause a lot of trouble.

Wales are looking good though in this one match and on the right trajectory for an underserved semi-final (anyone on this side of the draw should be out in the QF's).

I dunno, we controlled that game for 65/70 mins to be honest. We had the rub of the green perhaps with some calls and I could even get on board with the idea that Fiji lost that game rather than we won it but I think, considering we were the better team for most of the match, we were good value for the win. Really looking forward to what should be a cracking quarter final in England v Fiji.

Definitely not writing off Argentina, they're perfectly capable of beating us but it's not a game that anyone would be shocked if we won.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I really hope you don't mean that literally.




Agree. But thanking the fans is one thing. I think some people, including me, picked up on a very visible outpouring of emotion from the Irish players. It was a job very well done, but the question is whether they can lift themselves to that level, or higher, again or whether they had targeted that game too much from a long way out as we now hear Eng did vs NZ in 19 (a knockout game admittedly). For one, defeat will almost certainly spur the Boks on.

I agree with what VT is saying in that it seems that Ireland put a lot emotional energy into that game. In sport emotion is a limited resource so the question is whether they can recover and rebuild themselves up for a month. They have two weeks before a must win (or less by less than 7) match. La Rochelle wasn't able to rebuild up after the champions cup for the top 14 final and their whole thing is vibes.

Edit: I don't think Irish were arrogant for celebrating but they did look like they were celebrating reaching the summit when the journey finishes when you get back home alive.

Fair enough, entitled to that opinion but I think there's more than a fair share of bollixology in it to be honest. I've seen Ireland be far less subdued after games than that, it felt very similar to Scotland in Murrayfield to be honest, players were interacting with the crowd way more there. La Rochelle isn't exactly a great example either, they lost a tight game to a late try against a team that absolutely has their number, don't think there's an argument to be made that they fell flat. Both Ireland and Wales are also facing games that they flat out won't need that extra emotion to win, teams that could beat them on an off day but both have looked below their best so far this comp. We know Ireland can back up a win and be a bit ruthless and it looks like Wales are bringing a similar energy.

Don't think a team like France, SA or NZ would get the same criticism.