[Natwest 6 Nations] Round 3 : Scotland Vs England 24/02/2018 16:45

[ncurd]

Ah yes the highlights a great way to understand how an 80 minute match went...

 

[Majorhound]

I'm a newbie on here, and a League fan to boot. I thought England had a raw deal from the ref second half. He seemed particularly whistle happy. I write this as someone who is usually happy to see and England Union XV fail.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Are you drunk or something? You seem to have come on here now with the sole intention of trolling, whereas most times you at least appear reasonable.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm a newbie on here, and a League fan to boot. I thought England had a raw deal from the ref second half. He seemed particularly whistle happy. I write this as someone who is usually happy to see and England Union XV fail.

@Hound think you're being called out.

 

[Majorhound]

Are you drunk or something? You seem to have come on here now with the sole intention of trolling, whereas most times you at least appear reasonable.

~Sorry you've lost me, as I say I'm new.

 

[TommiG88]

~Sorry you've lost me, as I say I'm new.

Don't think that was directed at you. Welcome.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

~Sorry you've lost me, as I say I'm new.

That's aimed at Jones, not you. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Zero]

Every team has faced a hard deal from refs or TMOs. Happens in every sport too, nout you can do about it, it didn't cost England the game like it cost Scotland a RWC SF though. The Scots decided this game by good tactics and playing their ass off. Great result.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Every team has faced a hard deal from refs or TMOs. Happens in every sport too, nout you can do about it, it didn't cost England the game like it cost Scotland a RWC SF though. The Scots decided this game by good tactics and playing their ass off. Great result.

The thing is there is a difference between a ref simply misreading a situation and awarding the penalty the wrong way and a ref completely arbitrarily deciding to award a penalty when he sees the team is going to concede. There are 3 times a ref can call play back to an earlier infringement:

1 - Playing advantage. The ref must call the penalty and then call advantage to do this
2 - Checking for foul play
3 - If the assistant ref flags up something the ref missed.

In the Care intercept Owens warned Launchbury and Launchbury responded. Owens told him he was ok and did not award a penalty nor call advantage. There was no foul play and the assistant didn't make a call as Owens had seen it. Owens then decides the next phase that he has changed his mind and decided it actually was a penalty. A ref cannot change their mind like that after play has moved on if none of the above conditions are met. If as Owens says "the damage was done" then he should have given a penalty and played advantage but he didn't do it. If the Welsh could whinge to the WRU about their try being disallowed (there was a knockon anyway) then we are within our rights to also ask for clarification of a ref deciding to award a penalty after saying it wasn't a penalty with no new evidence.

 

[All Black]

Scotland, like many teams, have never beaten the All Blacks. When Scotland came close to doing so last year, it wasn't a one-off performance nor was it the 'All Blacks having a bad day'. You don't just fluke a close game against the ABs, it takes a lot of good rugby. That should've been a sign to all 'rugby experts' that the Scottish weren't going to be beaten convincingly by England, or, be beaten full stop.

 

[Sixways Cheryl]

England haven't been great all tournament, let's be honest. Scotland won the game because of their speed & intensity in the first 40 and then their immense defensive effort in the second 40. We on the other hand were sloppy & playing at about half the pace of the Scots throughout. We miss Billy Vunipola (Nathan Hughes isn't an international #8), Maro Itoje is playing like a shadow of the player he was last year & there were too many just going through the motions.

Silver lining is despite all that we actually could've won the game in the second half. Danny Care's try really should have stood & Owen Farrell's being disallowed for the knock-on in the tackle was such a marginal call (albeit the right one). Even though it turned out to be too little, too late - the second half was probably the first time we've looked like 'Eddie Jones' England' all Six Nations. Expecting a backlash against France - Grand Slam might be gone but no reason we can't still win the tournament.

 

[Derpus]

Scotland, like many teams, have never beaten the All Blacks. When Scotland came close to doing so last year, it wasn't a one-off performance nor was it the 'All Blacks having a bad day'. You don't just fluke a close game against the ABs, it takes a lot of good rugby. That should've been a sign to all 'rugby experts' that the Scottish weren't going to be beaten convincingly by England, or, be beaten full stop.

Eh, i tend to think the only reason Australia beat the darkness last year was because they had an off night.

Scotland are the real deal though.

 

[Maverick1987]

Scotland had not scored a try against England at Murrayfield for 14 years...

14 years.

They scored 3 tries in the first half.
You got belted mate.
Man up and take it on the chin and stop crying like a baby.
You got belted by Scotland.
The English players showed poor discipline and a lack of leadership.
That's a massive step backwards.

Jones has continually failed to address England's weakness at the breakdown and Scotland belted them in that sector, in spades.
Once again his true colours are showing and the wheels are falling off the Eddie Jones circus.
Same old same old.

Pick up Joe Schmidt after Ireland win the RWC in Japan.

Remember when we totally dominated you at Twickers ? Put a record score on you and made you look like a pub team in the second half ? Well that didn't ruin your team and this isn't going to ruin ours .


As a matter of fact now the dust has settled I think it could be a good thing for us . I said before the tournament that I thought we had stagnated and that we needed to really improve our forward pack . That got shown to be exactly true on Saturday and now it's time for Eddie to truly earn him money and get us moving again

 

[Majorhound]

The thing is there is a difference between a ref simply misreading a situation and awarding the penalty the wrong way and a ref completely arbitrarily deciding to award a penalty when he sees the team is going to concede. There are 3 times a ref can call play back to an earlier infringement:

1 - Playing advantage. The ref must call the penalty and then call advantage to do this
2 - Checking for foul play
3 - If the assistant ref flags up something the ref missed.

In the Care intercept Owens warned Launchbury and Launchbury responded. Owens told him he was ok and did not award a penalty nor call advantage. There was no foul play and the assistant didn't make a call as Owens had seen it. Owens then decides the next phase that he has changed his mind and decided it actually was a penalty. A ref cannot change their mind like that after play has moved on if none of the above conditions are met. If as Owens says "the damage was done" then he should have given a penalty and played advantage but he didn't do it. If the Welsh could whinge to the WRU about their try being disallowed (there was a knockon anyway) then we are within our rights to also ask for clarification of a ref deciding to award a penalty after saying it wasn't a penalty with no new evidence.

As I stated in my initial post, I'm a League fan, who watches Union on TV. I would interpret this reply in League terms, that after the PTB any technical infringement, knock-on, forward pass cannot be punished. Is this correct?

 

[Majorhound]

First half Scotland took a lot of chances with long floated passes, They came off. It could just as easily gone the other way, with the passes intercepted. However, Huw Jones looked an excellent prospect, surely some Welsh blood there with a name like that.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I love it when England get smashed.
The prissy trolls on here lose the plot.
That includes you Olly.
All manner of trolling and bad language is considered to be acceptable in the defence of national pride.
You got belted, you were very second best, and your coach is a muppet.
Grand Slam gone.
English rugby top level improvement = static.

Joe Schmidt will be sleeping peacefully.
Congratulations Scotland on a glorious and surprisingly easy victory.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think the Care non-try is very similar to the Anscombe non-try, the right outcome was reached through the wrong process. Owens not penalising Launchbury initially was wrong that was a penalty all day but Owens let's sides slow the ball down for 5-10 seconds due to a warped view that it lets the game flow, after the intercept he realised that the illegality in Launchbury's play allowed England to set and intercept and brought the play back. Theoretically he could have gone to the TMO to determine Launchbury's play but he'd have been criticised for that too, not penalising Launchbury and thus favouring England was his big mistake really.

 

[j-dawg]

Can't complain about the loss, Scotland were better. Lone players running into three or four Scottish defenders time after time results in constant turnovers; who knew?

Only ref decision I'll whinge about is the one that stopped the Care interception. Had Care not intercepted the play would've carried on as normal without an advantage, which says to me the interception should've stood.

 

[ncurd]

I think the Care non-try is very similar to the Anscombe non-try, the right outcome was reached through the wrong process. Owens not penalising Launchbury initially was wrong that was a penalty all day but Owens let's sides slow the ball down for 5-10 seconds due to a warped view that it lets the game flow, after the intercept he realised that the illegality in Launchbury's play allowed England to set and intercept and brought the play back. Theoretically he could have gone to the TMO to determine Launchbury's play but he'd have been criticised for that too, not penalising Launchbury and thus favouring England was his big mistake really.

I've got no problem with penalising Launchbury its a blatant penalty but it has to be called as advantage or not be seen that you need to check with TMO neither of which happened. My issue stems from consistency of refereeing if you tell a player to stop and he does, then you agree, you've allowed him to do it, you can't retrospectively give a penalty for it. Otherwise it causes a problem for every official in every match why stop doing something if the ref tell you to if your just going to get peanlised for it anyway? Also there the fact Owens was letting Scotland get away with all sort of malarkey at the breakdown that was just as blatant as that.

Owens has two choices officiate the breakdown properly or allow the intercept try. He can't have it both ways otherwise he's just saying 'you can break the rules as long as you don't score a try of it'.



Jone Boy do you ever comment on a match before a game? Or do you always just come in like the messiah after the fact? I know if I could be arsed find loads of posts of you praising EJ and what a great a job he's done with England. but nah you'd rather be on the wind-up.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'm not an international coach but surely anyone could see the Scottish backrow would have a field day against a back row of Lawes, Robshaw and Hughes? A backrow so unbalanced that if it was a boat than it would capsize going in a straight line. I see criticism of Hughes but to me he did is job well, yes he's not as good as Billy but he knocked over people and committed defenders. It was then Lawes and Robshaw and the rest of the forwards to were constantly getting caught short and not getting to the breakdown fast enough. I saw that England caught turned over the ball 13 times which is way too much, how many turnover penalties did England win? ( I think one) Russel seemed to remember that he is actually a very good player and linked up perfectly with Huw Jones who I predict will be the best outside centre in the world soon. The bench used to be one of England's strengths but now it seems that it's not as strong as was before. Jones was very reluctant to put some of the players on (not surprised with Wigglesworth) However Vuniploa played a good 70 mins and looked knackered for the final 20.