Irish Wolfhounds vs England Saxons 30/1/15 Independent Park ko 19:45

[munstermuffin]

This isn't a Zebo v Kearney argument... I haven't mentioned Kearney once!

Muff are these stats coming from provincial games this year? Because they may be warped considering Of all the wingers mentioned in this thread only Gilroy has played (30 mins) more Pro 12 rugby with Zebo having more than a game and a half over Bowe, 2 games over McFadden and Kearney and 3 and a half over Trimble.

My point is and I'll leave it at this is that while Zebo has improved defensively and improved his attitude etc... he's still not there in comparison with the others mentioned, with the possible exception of Gilroy, and what he apparently brings to the game, the ability to make something out of nothing among other things, isn't evident or isn't sufficiently better than the rest. I have him at least 4th in our list of wingers, 5th if Earls comes back.

Coming from stats since Sept 2014 and based on games players played over 60mins.
Regards rest I'll ask what has he not got that Kearney or Gilroy hasn't. And I sit not evident in his assists. He's obviously creating tries with his work. His tackling and carries show he's getting on ball. Can I ask where is the clear evidence that the others are doing more?

What is a wingers main roles can I ask in your eyes? Mine they are on kick chase and fielding, positioning, scoring and linking. Zebo has done all these as good as any of others. Not saying he is best but as I said watching Munster and reading journalists are 2 different things. I'm not saying you don't watch games but Zebo has a stigma attached and media just see him as easy target when reality is a lot different.

 

[munstermuffin]

I wanted to say something along those lines. A lot of the criticism aimed towards Zebo seems to be based on dated analysis. He wasn't out of place against Australia and South Africa, and this season he has been very solid and hungry in a back line that struggles to use their men out wide. I've seen him comfortably make plays from 1st receiver, something wingers like McFadden, Gilroy, and Kearney cannot do. I'd love to hear what his weaknesses are where we go off his present performances, not from a season or two ago. He is a very solid player capable of producing plays and finishing touches that McFadden and Kearney cannot.

Zebo's weakness asa guy who sees him everyday are. 1. Strength on the floor as in at times he can be prone to being outmuscled. 2. His technique going in to rucks is questionable and 3. Is at times his pass an be suspect when he does go in as you mentioned at 1st or 2nd receiver.

As I say I'm not slamming anyone. I think McFadden is the best defensive winger, Bowe ha the best cutting edge, Trimble is 1 of those not the best at any 1 aspect but possibly best overall balanced.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Coming from stats since Sept 2014 and based on games players played over 60mins.
Regards rest I'll ask what has he not got that Kearney or Gilroy hasn't. And I sit not evident in his assists. He's obviously creating tries with his work. His tackling and carries show he's getting on ball. Can I ask where is the clear evidence that the others are doing more?

What is a wingers main roles can I ask in your eyes? Mine they are on kick chase and fielding, positioning, scoring and linking. Zebo has done all these as good as any of others. Not saying he is best but as I said watching Munster and reading journalists are 2 different things. I'm not saying you don't watch games but Zebo has a stigma attached and media just see him as easy target when reality is a lot different.

I haven't watched as much of Munster as you have obviously after Leinster, who I've watched every minute of this season, they're the team I watch most. I'll admit straight away that my great pretender comment was ott, staring down a six hour stint in the NUIG library will make anyone say mad things! Apart from Bowe we don't have a world class winger, after that is 6* wingers who can all go well at international level, of whom Keith Earls has the potential to be World class. The remaining 5 are Trimble, Ferg, DK, Gilroy and Zebo, the first three are fantastic defenders, Ferg and Trimble are good finishers while DK is the best wing under the high ball and McFadden's link play is also fantastic. That leaves Gilroy and Zebo who aren't as good defensively, not based solely on tackle count which is often forgotten, Zebo is better than all but DK under the high ball and of about the same quality finisher as McFadden and Trimble (each score tries the others could not) and Gilroy is the best finisher of all barring a fit Earls. I then look at the current Ireland style of play, low risk and defensive rugby with a lot of kick and chase, with Rob Kearney, Henshaw, Luke Fitz and Bowe all being highly effective on the kick chase we don't need much more there and I think McFadden ousts Zebo here. Assuming we take 4 wings to the RWC and Luke Fitz is considered a centre I have McFadden and Bowe for reasons above, after that I think a fit and firing Earls is a must pick and Trimble's defence and attitude brings him ahead of Zebo. If you're bringing a fifth it becomes personal preference between Gilroy, DK and Zebo and for me an on form Gilroy is the man I'd want as he's the best line breaking winger we have if not as good at the others at kicking or under the high ball.

A lot of arguments for having Zebo is what he can make out of nothing and I can't see much evidence of this in his goose steps and run for contact whereas Gilroy can rip teams apart. That could be to do with the fact that Munster have devolved to 9 man rugby this year though!

 

[ruggabee]

Zebo's weakness asa guy who sees him everyday are. 1. Strength on the floor as in at times he can be prone to being outmuscled. 2. His technique going in to rucks is questionable and 3. Is at times his pass an be suspect when he does go in as you mentioned at 1st or 2nd receiver.

As I say I'm not slamming anyone. I think McFadden is the best defensive winger, Bowe ha the best cutting edge, Trimble is 1 of those not the best at any 1 aspect but possibly best overall balanced.

Thanks. I think those are things he can work on and I think he has been where he has shown improvement in doing so. TBH I think Zebo's style of play suits fullback best.. With Munster and Ireland having cover on the wings, I'd like to see him at back more. I've said it before but just thinking now it's probably a better spread of resources when wing is already so hotly debated with what's available.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I haven't watched as much of Munster as you have obviously after Leinster, who I've watched every minute of this season, they're the team I watch most. I'll admit straight away that my great pretender comment was ott, staring down a six hour stint in the NUIG library will make anyone say mad things! Apart from Bowe we don't have a world class winger, after that is 6* wingers who can all go well at international level, of whom Keith Earls has the potential to be World class. The remaining 5 are Trimble, Ferg, DK, Gilroy and Zebo, the first three are fantastic defenders, Ferg and Trimble are good finishers while DK is the best wing under the high ball and McFadden's link play is also fantastic. That leaves Gilroy and Zebo who aren't as good defensively, not based solely on tackle count which is often forgotten, Zebo is better than all but DK under the high ball and of about the same quality finisher as McFadden and Trimble (each score tries the others could not) and Gilroy is the best finisher of all barring a fit Earls. I then look at the current Ireland style of play, low risk and defensive rugby with a lot of kick and chase, with Rob Kearney, Henshaw, Luke Fitz and Bowe all being highly effective on the kick chase we don't need much more there and I think McFadden ousts Zebo here. Assuming we take 4 wings to the RWC and Luke Fitz is considered a centre I have McFadden and Bowe for reasons above, after that I think a fit and firing Earls is a must pick and Trimble's defence and attitude brings him ahead of Zebo. If you're bringing a fifth it becomes personal preference between Gilroy, DK and Zebo and for me an on form Gilroy is the man I'd want as he's the best line breaking winger we have if not as good at the others at kicking or under the high ball.

A lot of arguments for having Zebo is what he can make out of nothing and I can't see much evidence of this in his goose steps and run for contact whereas Gilroy can rip teams apart. That could be to do with the fact that Munster have devolved to 9 man rugby this year though!

This.

I like Zebo and I've always rated him higher than others around me seemed to have before, but I don't see what he has over Gilroy really. In fact, I'd have Gilroy attacking over Zebo. Gilroy's defence was always questioned, but wasn't that answered during the 2013 Six Nations? He put some huge hits in and was generally very solid.

Also, Munstermuffin, I find it a bit frustrating that you're talking about he's a better player because he has better stats - when it wasn't so long ago you fought tooth and nail that Peter O'Mahony's dreadful tackling stats meant nothing. Of course, he's a fantastic 6 now but he wasn't always.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well if it's style of play fair enough Cmac but Zebos attitude and workrate has improved massively. Out of all wings as you say Bowe is top but dare I say it'd be awful if you brought others as they're all same. That'd be worst reason as you need different guys. Zebo has adapted to Schmidts plan and put in effort and I think you overvalue Kearneys skill fielding as I'd say Zebo is every bit as good as him and I'd have no fears of the others. Also again if you watched Munster lately you see Zebo has a lot more than a goose step. As I said it depends what you judge a winger on. If it's scoring tries, linking up and looking for work as well as defending very well Zebo is certainly up there as per stats. It's a pity media don't just judge guys as they are. Schmidt seems to use stats and appreciate guys that are putting in work on areas told. Dave Foley, Zebo, TO'D and Felix are clear cases I've seen from Munster view. And well Zebo proved in November how far he's come. People keep saying his workrate/attitude is poor lately but I'd ask when? Saracens he stood up manfully and made hits on Billy V, has never whined when asked to move or when told change this or that. Again people get too brainwashed by media.

 

[munstermuffin]

This.

I like Zebo and I've always rated him higher than others around me seemed to have before, but I don't see what he has over Gilroy really. In fact, I'd have Gilroy attacking over Zebo. Gilroy's defence was always questioned, but wasn't that answered during the 2013 Six Nations? He put some huge hits in and was generally very solid.

Also, Munstermuffin, I find it a bit frustrating that you're talking about he's a better player because he has better stats - when it wasn't so long ago you fought tooth and nail that Peter O'Mahony's dreadful tackling stats meant nothing. Of course, he's a fantastic 6 now but he wasn't always.

On top I'm not saying Gilroy is poor and yes he's good attacking, possibly better than Zebo but defensively and going in field he's probably where Zebo was before Schmidt have him homework.

On POM. It was never that he was poor. People said he was shying away because he made 9 tackles here or there and Heaslip did more. I fought tooth and nail saying it was because POM wasn't playing traditional 6 role. He was doing best work of Irish team on the floor and playing part in line out. And you say he's fantastic 6 now but fact is very little has changed between when I defended him and now. So what has changed people's mind to applaud him now for the exact same role they slammed him for?
Making 9 tackles missing 0 isn't dreadful is it?
Dreadful is missing 2/3/4 tackles.

 

[Groundhog]

This.

I like Zebo and I've always rated him higher than others around me seemed to have before, but I don't see what he has over Gilroy really. In fact, I'd have Gilroy attacking over Zebo. Gilroy's defence was always questioned, but wasn't that answered during the 2013 Six Nations? He put some huge hits in and was generally very solid.

Also, Munstermuffin, I find it a bit frustrating that you're talking about he's a better player because he has better stats - when it wasn't so long ago you fought tooth and nail that Peter O'Mahony's dreadful tackling stats meant nothing. Of course, he's a fantastic 6 now but he wasn't always.

Honestly I wouldn't want to pick a winner between Gilroy and Zebo.

 

[munstermuffin]

Honestly I wouldn't want to pick a winner between Gilroy and Zebo.

As I've said there's no clear cut but that means Zebos not miles behind because of ****e attitude or workrate. My own opinion is I think Gilroy is where Zebo was before Schmidt had word with Zebo in terms of his defensive work and link in play. But in open field Gilroy is much better 1 on 1 or open field attacking. Has better movement and a more natural posture to sell dummy's or spin.

 

[willutalk]

Do you know where I will be able to watch this match? Very looking forward to seeing this new-look Saxons squad, and seeing how the Bath players face up (especially Burgess).

 

[Groundhog]

Do you know where I will be able to watch this match? Very looking forward to seeing this new-look Saxons squad, and seeing how the Bath players face up (especially Burgess).

It's on RTE for us, and Sky Sports are covering it too.

 

[Maverick1987]

When's the teams being announced ?

 

[Amiga500]

When's the teams being announced ?

With the number of possible injury returnees for Ireland, I don't know if any announcements will be of much relevance right up till the teams take to the field.

 

[big ginger 8]

So despite everything we've been hearing before now it seems SO'B is likely to play this match and Healy will probably miss out. Schmidt has basically said that is SO'B is fit he'll start vs Italy so expect him to start this and be taken off early.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Understandable. He's our best player barring possibly Sexton. We may not need him against Italy, but we will for fiercer tests to come.

 

[big ginger 8]

Understandable. He's our best player barring possibly Sexton. We may not need him against Italy, but we will for fiercer tests to come.

Oh of course it is. I just mean that Healy was always ahead of him in terms of recovery according to the injury updates.

 

[munstermuffin]

Oh of course it is. I just mean that Healy was always ahead of him in terms of recovery according to the injury updates.

Different demands though. Like Healy has ankle issue and that gets put under a lot more pressure as a prop than even his shoulder would. So a prop with ankle may just be held back and given extra week on caution side of things.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Brookes back with the Big Boys, so Jake Cooper-Wooley called in to the Saxons. Josh Beaumont also on standby with the squad.

Other than that, it's as expected:

15 Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)
14 Chris Ashton (Saracens)
13 Elliot Daly (Wasps)
12 Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
11 Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
10 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
9 Lee Dickson, captain (Northampton Saints)

1 Matt Mullan (Wasps)
2 Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
3 Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby)
4 Matt Garvey (Bath Rugby)
5 James Gaskell (Wasps)
6 Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
8 Thomas Waldrom (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
17 Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
18 Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
19 Maro Itoje (Saracens)
20 Carl Fearns (Bath)
21 Joe Simpson (Wasps)
22 Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
23 Christian Wade (Wasps)

 

[goodNumber10]

god, Callard says all the right things but he just comes across so insincere and uninspiring:

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/burgess-starts-for-england-saxons-cork/

that's some side though....

- - - Updated - - -

Irish Wolfhounds Side is no less impressive:

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-wolfhounds-saxons-team-1909472-Jan2015

15. Felix Jones (captain)
14. Fergus McFadden
13. Keith Earls
12. Gordon D'Arcy
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Ian Madigan
9. Kieran Marmion
1. Jack McGrath
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Mike Ross
4. Iain Henderson
5. Mike McCarthy
6. Dominic Ryan
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Jack Conan
Replacements:
16. Rob Herring
17. Michael Bent
18. Nathan White
19. Robbie Diack
20. Eoin McKeon
21. Isaac Boss
22. Noel Reid
23. Craig Gilroy

 

[j'nuh]

Is it just me that thinks that backrow is significantly better than the full squad one?

Not overly impressed by the backline though.