Irish Wolfhounds vs England Saxons 30/1/15 Independent Park ko 19:45

[Jockstap]

Thankfully in being inconsistent out of all Irish wingers he's in top 3 for tackles made, metres made, carries, defenders beaten and assists.
What does that's say about the rest. I'd almost guarantee he will go RWC as he's proven to be versatile and worked on what was given and did well in Autumn. It's up to others to take shirt off him now and yes Gilroy has done alright but if you mention inconsistent then look at his earlier form. So can't be 1 rule for some and not for others. Kearney isn't at the same level and hasn't played enough rugby, McFadden played well but isn't back long enough to judge and Trimble is out.

Amiga I don't think Kearney would be near starting regardless.

Where you getting your stats mate?

I disagree about Kearney jr, he's perennially underrated. While he may not look as flash as Zebo, he's the prototype Schmidt player, excellent defense, makes good decisions, rarely makes errors and has a huge work ethic. In my opinion he would have started the Six Nations along with Bowe had he not been injured.

 

[munstermuffin]

Where you getting your stats mate?

I disagree about Kearney jr, he's perennially underrated. While he may not look as flash as Zebo, he's the prototype Schmidt player, excellent defense, makes good decisions, rarely makes errors and has a huge work ethic. In my opinion he would have started the Six Nations along with Bowe had he not been injured.

Get stats off IRFU opta stats here on PC.
Regards Kearney I'd ask what's main role of winger? He's makes as many errors as rest and the rest have same attributes only they also have that bit more. I seriously doubt he'd have started as Trimble would have if fit and after that I have Zebo Gilroy and McFadden all ahead and better players. Throw in Earls too. Kearney hasn't top pace like others and yes he works hard but has no cutting edge which I think his strike rate shows very clearly.

 

[munstermuffin]

While I on site I see Earls and Henshaw trained today. From pics Henshaw seems to be at 12.

 

[Jockstap]

Get stats off IRFU opta stats here on PC.
Regards Kearney I'd ask what's main role of winger? He's makes as many errors as rest and the rest have same attributes only they also have that bit more. I seriously doubt he'd have started as Trimble would have if fit and after that I have Zebo Gilroy and McFadden all ahead and better players. Throw in Earls too. Kearney hasn't top pace like others and yes he works hard but has no cutting edge which I think his strike rate shows very clearly.

Just my opinion but I reckon in terms of decision making, work rate and defense he's head and shoulders above Zebo, Gilroy and McFadden, Earls too. As I mentioned above, for Schmidt that's comes first, strike rate, pace, flashy stuff comes second. In international rugby defense wins games.

 

[big ginger 8]

Does this really have to be gone over again? I'm pretty sure we had our fill of it last year.

 

[Jockstap]

Muff can you post the links for the pics as I can't seem to find them anywhere.

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Does this really have to be gone over again? I'm pretty sure we had our fill of it last year.

Eh what happened last year?

 

[lynam1104]

Eh what happened last year?

All this Zebo stuff. (As in arguing over his place in the team i'm not implying that Zebo is not good enough/undeserving)

 

[big ginger 8]

Muff can you post the links for the pics as I can't seem to find them anywhere.

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Eh what happened last year?

Constant arguments about D. Kearney vs Zebo with I think all points possible explored and to a lesser extent Murphy vs O'Donnell. No prizes for guessing who was each side. It's a debate that is done to death among Irish fans, both of which are really pretty pointless. It's got to a stage where some Irish forums have to specifically mention Zebo in their charter.

I took part in more than my fair share of it but at this stage it's really boring and it's clear that neither side will budge on it.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Bowe, Trimble, McFadden and Kearney are players that Schmidt will use very well, very few weaknesses in their games and have a work rate that is head and shoulders above any other wing available. Zebo's great ability, if you were to listen to pundits and fans, is that he's a game changer what is really meant by this is that he isn't as good as the other players but has personality so throw him in there. He's not a game changer at all, he's a player who drifts in and out of games and regularly goes from the spectacular to the ridiculous. He has bags of potential but he's certainly behind Gilroy and McFadden in terms of form since the new year.

 

[Jockstap]

Constant arguments about D. Kearney vs Zebo with I think all points possible explored and to a lesser extent Murphy vs O'Donnell. No prizes for guessing who was each side. It's a debate that is done to death among Irish fans, both of which are really pretty pointless. It's got to a stage where some Irish forums have to specifically mention Zebo in their charter.

I took part in more than my fair share of it but at this stage it's really boring and it's clear that neither side will budge on it.

Fair enough but for the record I am neither a Leinster or a Munster fan, nevermind each to their own. Besides along with Bowe the other wing spot should obviously go to Matt Healy.

 

[munstermuffin]

@jock I get them off IRFU opta stats through work so can't post links of pics but usually they 1s that will be released to main site so probably will be up.

At CMAC again regards Zebo. Fair enough if you don't think he is as good as Kearney and McFadden. But can I ask for a guy that doesn't get involved enough why he's topping stats in carries and assists as well as metres made and seems to be popping up all over the pitch. Like do ye even watch Munster as there's time we beg him to stay on wing. So can I ask how he's drifting in and out yet doing all things consistent. Doesn't that show so that other wingers are worst as they're more in the game yet can't produce similar results?
Again Kearney hasn't got the cutting edge as a top class winger if he did he'd score a lot more tries as a winger in that Leinster back line over years. Even MOC can't be blamed for that.
And BG8 yes media single out Zebo simply though because he's told do something and he does it yet still gets ridiculed yet if another winger does a worst job they're let off as Media (Thornley and Toland especially) have it in for Zebo.

As I said if Zebo is inconsistent and not in full games yet still shows to be producing more what does that say about ability of others. Just look at yesterday (albeit a **** sale team) he set up tries, scored tries, kicked well, scored well from ruck and did everything asked. If people actually watched Munster and stopped reading media it's be clear to see he works hard, looks for work and defensively especially has been probably the most improved wing in Ireland.

And I'm big fan of McFadden but besides Wasps game and a terrible Castres it's hard to say he is on form miles ahead of Zebo

 

[munstermuffin]

Fair enough but for the record I am neither a Leinster or a Munster fan, nevermind each to their own. Besides along with Bowe the other wing spot should obviously go to Matt Healy.

Certainly deserves a shot. Playing good stuff lately and deserves a Wolfhound chance.

 

[Groundhog]

The Zebo criticism is so unfounded. He's actually put his head down this year and put dedication into the weak areas of his game, especially his tackling. Zebo is suffering under the old rep of being nothing but a good finisher who is a non entity elsewhere. It's not true anymore. Watch him in a few games. He's regularly starved for possession on the wing so he comes infield often to carry. He's quick to rucks on his side of the pitch and I don't think anyone can deny his fielding ability. He wants to play ball, and looks hungry.
Ok, he's not setting the world alight with attacking play, and his little goosesteps into a group of defenders looks bad, but, to be honest, that's a result of playing behind a pack that bleeds penalties, crash centres and a narrow game plan at Munster. I really don't see the major flaw in his game!

 

[munstermuffin]

The Zebo criticism is so unfounded. He's actually put his head down this year and put dedication into the weak areas of his game, especially his tackling. Zebo is suffering under the old rep of being nothing but a good finisher who is a non entity elsewhere. It's not true anymore. Watch him in a few games. He's regularly starved for possession on the wing so he comes infield often to carry. He's quick to rucks on his side of the pitch and I don't think anyone can deny his fielding ability. He wants to play ball, and looks hungry.
Ok, he's not setting the world alight with attacking play, and his little goosesteps into a group of defenders looks bad, but, to be honest, that's a result of playing behind a pack that bleeds penalties, crash centres and a narrow game plan at Munster. I really don't see the major flaw in his game!

Exactly my point. Neil Francis and Liam Toland speak something and people listen. Cmac says fans say he is a game changer. Munster fans only say he has ability to make something out of nothing. As he has speed and good feet. So maybe fans you are on about don't watch Munster either. And not to get to in to it Zebo was 1 of 2 that even last week in Saracens game came out with respect and tried his heart out

For example I also hear Munster fans say Moore isn't great and only getting in as Ross is spent and D4 pushing it. But if you watch he's technical skills at scrum are excellent and he is a good prop. But again not as much Munster bias media so message isn't as big but again media ain't always right and a lot of it is lazy

 

[big ginger 8]

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm obviously on the left.

 

[big ginger 8]

I'm obviously on the left. 

Maybe partially...

but I prefer to consider him the living embodiment of the argument.

 

[munstermuffin]

Maybe partially...

but I prefer to consider him the living embodiment of the argument.

That's me to a tee

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Maybe partially...

but I prefer to consider him the living embodiment of the argument.

This isn't a Zebo v Kearney argument... I haven't mentioned Kearney once!

Muff are these stats coming from provincial games this year? Because they may be warped considering Of all the wingers mentioned in this thread only Gilroy has played (30 mins) more Pro 12 rugby with Zebo having more than a game and a half over Bowe, 2 games over McFadden and Kearney and 3 and a half over Trimble.

My point is and I'll leave it at this is that while Zebo has improved defensively and improved his attitude etc... he's still not there in comparison with the others mentioned, with the possible exception of Gilroy, and what he apparently brings to the game, the ability to make something out of nothing among other things, isn't evident or isn't sufficiently better than the rest. I have him at least 4th in our list of wingers, 5th if Earls comes back.

 

[ruggabee]

The Zebo criticism is so unfounded. He's actually put his head down this year and put dedication into the weak areas of his game, especially his tackling. Zebo is suffering under the old rep of being nothing but a good finisher who is a non entity elsewhere. It's not true anymore. Watch him in a few games. He's regularly starved for possession on the wing so he comes infield often to carry. He's quick to rucks on his side of the pitch and I don't think anyone can deny his fielding ability. He wants to play ball, and looks hungry.
Ok, he's not setting the world alight with attacking play, and his little goosesteps into a group of defenders looks bad, but, to be honest, that's a result of playing behind a pack that bleeds penalties, crash centres and a narrow game plan at Munster. I really don't see the major flaw in his game!

I wanted to say something along those lines. A lot of the criticism aimed towards Zebo seems to be based on dated analysis. He wasn't out of place against Australia and South Africa, and this season he has been very solid and hungry in a back line that struggles to use their men out wide. I've seen him comfortably make plays from 1st receiver, something wingers like McFadden, Gilroy, and Kearney cannot do. I'd love to hear what his weaknesses are where we go off his present performances, not from a season or two ago. He is a very solid player capable of producing plays and finishing touches that McFadden and Kearney cannot.