Ireland - England @ New Landsdowne Road, Dublin (27-08-2011, 14:30 GMT)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

England fans fall into 2 categories - the decent ones that just see it as it is, and the ones that feel England has some hereditary right to be the top NH team in the world cup, especially against other "Celtic" nations, and especially against Scotland and Wales - it's just a vibe I get from certain English fans on their high horse, which is towing a shiny sweet chariot. & I don't like it personally.

Calculon I can't help but notice the contradiction that one moment you're slating england for not being better than we are, arguing that with our resources we should be the best team in the world, the next your criticising people who believe england should be better than the celtic nations, when you yourself have already given a reason why that might be the case...

 

[Feicarsinn]

Earls leaked an early try by missing a tackle early on. We were behind from then until the end, showed no attacking promise, only had one try chance and Leamy f***ed it up. And the decision making was pretty s*ite especially from the back of rucks and penalties. Reddan looked better than Murray, Sexton better than O'Gara, Ferris not as good as O'Brien and Earls was*absolutely*pathetic.

None of that is incredibly surprising I guess. Earls is a poor defender and a tad low on confidence, Sexton is a more rounded player than ROG, O'Brien is our form backrow while Ferris has played bugger all rugby, Reddan is a seasoned campaigner while Murray isn't and Leamy is poo.

 

[psychic duck]

Leamy is poo.

what happened to Leamy?

about five years ago he was one of the best in Europe, but ever since RWC 2007 he's just declined

did that serious injury a couple of seasons back effect his performance?

 

[munstermuffin]

None of that is incredibly surprising I guess. Earls is a poor defender and a tad low on confidence, Sexton is a more rounded player than ROG, O'Brien is our form backrow while Ferris has played bugger all rugby, Reddan is a seasoned campaigner while Murray isn't and Leamy is poo.

It isn't often I agree with you Feic and well am writing this on basis of you not seeing game too:

- Agree on Earls confidence is poor at moment but also we've discovered this with Munster and Ireland - He's a winger and only an emergency 13 and Bowe should've been deployed here.
- Agree also Sexton should start ahead of ROG as he is better to set our backs running. ROG is in the better form but Sexton hasn't been poor.
- Here I'll disagree now with you and maybe cmac as well I thought Leamy was better than Ferris and well Heaslip over all. My big worry here is how much backwards Heaslip has gone.
- Also I'll disagree alot with the Reddan part. For the 1st time at stages Conor looked out of his pond and inexperienced but Reddan was worst by a long shot and I'm not going to BS and say Murray should be a starter because I'd worry about that too after Sat but Reddan as you pointed out is a seasoned performer and was awful but I think this could be a disaster World Cup and alot of guys will be in trouble after this.

 

[King_D'Arcy]

It isn't often I agree with you Feic and well am writing this on basis of you not seeing game too:

- Agree on Earls confidence is poor at moment but also we've discovered this with Munster and Ireland - He's a winger and only an emergency 13 and Bowe should've been deployed here.
- Agree also Sexton should start ahead of ROG as he is better to set our backs running. ROG is in the better form but Sexton hasn't been poor.
- Here I'll disagree now with you and maybe cmac as well I thought Leamy was better than Ferris and well Heaslip over all. My big worry here is how much backwards Heaslip has gone.
- Also I'll disagree alot with the Reddan part. For the 1st time at stages Conor looked out of his pond and inexperienced but Reddan was worst by a long shot and I'm not going to BS and say Murray should be a starter because I'd worry about that too after Sat but Reddan as you pointed out is a seasoned performer and was awful but I think this could be a disaster World Cup and alot of guys will be in trouble after this.

I agree with most of what you say. Don't think Leamy was better than Ferris and Heaslip though.

I think we're gonna be looking at a pretty terrible World Cup to be honest. If Italy play as well as they did in the 6 nations they'd probably beat us. I don't think they will though and I think we'll struggle our way to the quarter finals where we'll be beaten convincingly by SA.

If we wanna play at our best we should play the back row of O'Brien, Jennings and Heaslip. I know some people think we should have Ferris in there but there's a better balance with Jennings.
The starting back 3 against Oz has to be Trimble, Bowe and Kearney. Trimble and Kearney looked quite good when they played in the warm up matches. Somthing which can't be said about the vast majority of irish players.
Murray should start against USA. I'd like to see him on the bench against Oz if he proves himself to be up to it.

 

[calculon]

...when you yourself have already given a reason why that might be the case...

Not really. I don't think you're better than Australia, and normally aren't, especially the way they're playing right now. France look the most promising of the NH teams, and I don't see them beating a SH team either.

 

[JW.]

Im not saying we're better overall than Australia but in a SF I fancy our chances if we play Australia. Because there forwards are weak, and we have beaten them before and we can again.

We should see France in the QF, confident we should win that but you never know with the french they can be great.

 

[King_D'Arcy]

Im not saying we're better overall than Australia but in a SF I fancy our chances if we play Australia. Because there forwards are weak, and we have beaten them before and we can again.

Erroneous! Erroneous on both accounts!

 

[Peat]

I was out of reach for a few days surrounding the game and didn't happen to catch it. Quick description please? England won I see, as was to be expected. It's all looking a wee bit like 07' from here at the moment.

Ireland's problem was when Wallace and Heaslip went off, they had a grand total of one forward who could make ground and draw defenders in - Ferris. Who, incidentally, racked up 11 tackles, missed none, and made 14 carries for 40 yards - and virtually every time he got his hands on the ball there were two Englishmen waiting. I don't think O'Brien would have done a whole lot better.

This was compounded by the Irish backs refusing to straighten the line, draw a man and pass. They did so once or twice and made ground. Mainly they shovelled **** to the end of the line and expected the man there to do something.

Ireland had something like 5 line-outs in English territory and won just one. Neither Flannery nor Best had a wonderful day with the darts - Flannery very nearly set up Tuilagi for a breakaway try, he has Geordan Murphy to thank for saving him.

In fairness, if they'd taken their kicks at goal instead of going for the corner, and if Reddan hadn't botched a tap penalty 5m from the line, Ireland might well have won that. It was a poor performance but chances were there.

The pluses for Ireland were, imo -
Ferris looked good and managed to stay injury free. POC had a fair game.
Trimble continues to be a busy bee
The scrum went well
Geordan Murphy had a fair game

And thats it.
Earls is getting a lot of **** when apart from one (admittedly horrific) lapse he coped well with Tuilagi all game. His attack was the problem, although frankly he showed more endeavour than most there.
Personally think Murray was marginally better than Reddan.

 

[munstermuffin]

I agree with most of what you say. Don't think Leamy was better than Ferris and Heaslip though.

I think we're gonna be looking at a pretty terrible World Cup to be honest. If Italy play as well as they did in the 6 nations they'd probably beat us. I don't think they will though and I think we'll struggle our way to the quarter finals where we'll be beaten convincingly by SA.

If we wanna play at our best we should play the back row of O'Brien, Jennings and Heaslip. I know some people think we should have Ferris in there but there's a better balance with Jennings.
The starting back 3 against Oz has to be Trimble, Bowe and Kearney. Trimble and Kearney looked quite good when they played in the warm up matches. Somthing which can't be said about the vast majority of irish players.
Murray should start against USA. I'd like to see him on the bench against Oz if he proves himself to be up to it.

Can agree with that.

Will start with Leamy issue.
That is only opinions but I think he was fine but Heaslip's major dip in form is my worry.

On Backrow.
I can accept your view and agree with regards backrow. Because it's like this, Ferris isn't as good as he was before injury because I'm sure mentality kicks in and he is thinking my knee can go at any second. Add in we need a specialist 7 and well Wallace was man we badly need but now Jennings is only natural 7 there but unfortunately he isn't up to it but is best option available. Sean O'Brien at 7 is a waste because he is average at best there and well we'd be taking a World Class 6 out of our team also. But while I agree with your backrow I do still worry as Jennings isn't up to International games it seems and well I think for a backrow we thought had alot of depht, it does but not alot of class.

On the back 3.
While I feel sorry for Earls as he's had to play 13 in 2 games I agree that the 2 lads have earned their shirts and deserve to start.

On scrum-half.
I've said it before and always will i think Reddan is as bad as O'Leary. I don't know what we will do here but we are in trouble, I just hope Reddan isn't our starting 9 and either Boss or Murray are put in as well Reddan has been awful in green and well hasn't earned his shirt.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ireland's problem was when Wallace and Heaslip went off, they had a grand total of one forward who could make ground and draw defenders in - Ferris. Who, incidentally, racked up 11 tackles, missed none, and made 14 carries for 40 yards - and virtually every time he got his hands on the ball there were two Englishmen waiting. I don't think O'Brien would have done a whole lot better.

This was compounded by the Irish backs refusing to straighten the line, draw a man and pass. They did so once or twice and made ground. Mainly they shovelled **** to the end of the line and expected the man there to do something.

Ireland had something like 5 line-outs in English territory and won just one. Neither Flannery nor Best had a wonderful day with the darts - Flannery very nearly set up Tuilagi for a breakaway try, he has Geordan Murphy to thank for saving him.

In fairness, if they'd taken their kicks at goal instead of going for the corner, and if Reddan hadn't botched a tap penalty 5m from the line, Ireland might well have won that. It was a poor performance but chances were there.

The pluses for Ireland were, imo -
Ferris looked good and managed to stay injury free. POC had a fair game.
Trimble continues to be a busy bee
The scrum went well
Geordan Murphy had a fair game

And thats it.
Earls is getting a lot of **** when apart from one (admittedly horrific) lapse he coped well with Tuilagi all game. His attack was the problem, although frankly he showed more endeavour than most there.
Personally think Murray was marginally better than Reddan.

Must say that is as good a report as you'll probably get to game. Superb analysis.

 

[eot345]

England fans fall into 2 categories - the decent ones that just see it as it is, and the ones that feel England has some hereditary right to be the top NH team in the world cup, especially against other "Celtic" nations, and especially against Scotland and Wales - it's just a vibe I get from certain English fans on their high horse, which is towing a shiny sweet chariot. & I don't like it personally.

We dont think that England has a hereditary right to be the top NH team in the world cup the fact is that over the last 12 months england have won the 6 nations and beaten australia at home and away... therefore england clearly look like one of the top NH teams going into the WC. From what i can tell no one is saying that england is particularly good at the moment (they're not) and so it is completely uncalled for for you to try and start arguements/bait ppl for no reason... grow up

 

[j-dawg]

I think we can beat Australia, because we have done for the past two matches. One of those was a complete obliteration.

Also Calculon obviously has the mental stability of a 3 year old oyster

 

[Peat]

Can agree with that.

Will start with Leamy issue.
That is only opinions but I think he was fine but Heaslip's major dip in form is my worry.

On Backrow.
I can accept your view and agree with regards backrow. Because it's like this, Ferris isn't as good as he was before injury because I'm sure mentality kicks in and he is thinking my knee can go at any second. Add in we need a specialist 7 and well Wallace was man we badly need but now Jennings is only natural 7 there but unfortunately he isn't up to it but is best option available. Sean O'Brien at 7 is a waste because he is average at best there and well we'd be taking a World Class 6 out of our team also. But while I agree with your backrow I do still worry as Jennings isn't up to International games it seems and well I think for a backrow we thought had alot of depht, it does but not alot of class.

Heaslip has had a major slip in form, but he's capable of putting it right. Can't help but feel Heaslip might have been a little quiet as he didn't want to get injured.

Ferris was feeling his knee, there's no doubt. There was one ruck at the end where he was down besides it clutching his knee and I very nearly shat myself. However, he's still a good player, returning to form fairly quickly, and when it matters he will forget about his knee and start trying to kill people.

I'd play Ferris-SOB-Heaslip. Because they're international standard players, and Jennings and Leamy aren't. Because Ireland have been playing with three ball carriers in the back-row for a long time now, and are heavily reliant on it imo. Doesn't matter which of SOB and Ferris is 7, think of them as a pair of 6.5s. Tell SOB to work the loose channels looking for offloads and lines to get him into space running, which is where he's at his best. Tell Ferris to plough it up the tighter channels and hit rucks, which is one of his strong points. Heaslip was always the best link-man in that back-row anyway. It mightn't be ideal, but I think its the best Ireland are going to get.

On the back 3.
While I feel sorry for Earls as he's had to play 13 in 2 games I agree that the 2 lads have earned their shirts and deserve to start.

Earls has been very hard done by, he was one of Ireland's best backs in the 6N. He needs to stake his ground and say he's an out and out wing who can cover other positions but its not his strength. Playing at 13 has not gone well for him.

 

[lucky number 7]

I do think Jennings is up to standard...In my opinion the Leinster team of last season would beat the current Irish team quite convincingly ..He came on in the biggest game of the season and the balance he brought turned the game for Leinster Vs northampton...his impact could be massive at this stage too.

That said I really think that a backrow of Ferris O'Brien ad Heaslip would manage it quite well and I agree with Peats Idea of Ferris hitting tighter Channels while Sob ****s **** up through the centre.

 

[munstermuffin]

I do think Jennings is up to standard...In my opinion the Leinster team of last season would beat the current Irish team quite convincingly ..He came on in the biggest game of the season and the balance he brought turned the game for Leinster Vs northampton...his impact could be massive at this stage too.

That said I really think that a backrow of Ferris O'Brien ad Heaslip would manage it quite well and I agree with Peats Idea of Ferris hitting tighter Channels while Sob ****s **** up through the centre.

Can agree with Peat on that backrow as I said only doubt I have over Ferris is his injury not his ability as he is a world class player.

But Lucky I disagree with Jennings as any time he played this level he has been nowhere to be seen. Leamy has had superb games for Munster but again I don't think he is up there either with 3 mentioned and Wallace.
And Peat I hope it is a case of Heaslip rediscovering form as it's needed quick.
On the Earls issue again I agree he should be let fight for spot on wing but at his age if your put at 13 your just delighted to get a start so I understand where he is coming from and it is hard.

 

[Logorrhea]

Heaslip has had a major slip in form, but he's capable of putting it right.

When did he have a major slip in form? Not looking for an arguement as its not a selection debate but hes been playing pretty well for the start of the season. Did no one notice the difference when he came on against France? I thought he had a pretty big impact. Compare him to Leamys performances and you cant question his form at all.

Earls is getting off quite easy if you ask me. He's played two absoilutely shite matches yet everyone seems to think hes been hard done by? Its as if it is somebody elses fauly hes been playing shite. Dont see him making the team at the moment.

Jennings is the only proper 7 we now have. Hes the obvious bench option behind a Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip starting backrow. I'd prefer to see him at 7, giving Ferris a rest whenever possible, and see if he can play his way into the team.

 

[calculon]

Earls is getting off quite easy if you ask me. He's played two absoilutely shite matches yet everyone seems to think hes been hard done by? Its as if it is somebody elses fauly hes been playing shite. Dont see him making the team at the moment.

Yeah, if he had to fight for his jersey, he might perform a bit better.

 

[munstermuffin]

Log not getting in to arguing so will put it simply.

1. People are just saying Heaslip has been poor compared to usual standards and well hopes he picks it up. If you think he's going well then you've no worries.

2. Nobody said Earls would/should get a start as everyone has said Trimble earned his jersey. People just said it's been unlucky that he hasnt got much gametime on the wing and well versatility hurt him.

3. And lastly I understand you bias to Leinster but why would Jennings earn a spot in 22 after choking in all his previous outings in green and not been able to earn a spot in regular squad. Jennings is a specialist 7 but not up to international standard.

 

[Logorrhea]

Yeah, if he had to fight for his jersey, he might perform a bit better.

Doesnt have to fight for his jersey though does he. Hes from Munster.

Also, Earls loss of form is not his fault. Its Darcy's.