Ireland - England @ New Landsdowne Road, Dublin (27-08-2011, 14:30 GMT)

[JW.]

I agree MJ might not have his selection spot on but he has brought some good players in and they have performed very well under him. But you can hardly blame him for the first part of his coaching carreer the guy got picked without any experience as a coach. But what he does bring is a knowledge how to win games and the guys respect him. And im pretty confident in our squad ahead of the WC. Next to that there's really no point blaming anyone at the moment.

 

[gingergenius]

England are going into the world cup having won one 6N ***le (and no grand slams), and one 1-1 draw on tour of Australia plus one home win as our only positives against the tri nations in recent years. If we're happy with that and 'confident in our team' then we really ought to expect better.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

olyy where can I get those stats from such as your quoting, such as most turnovers made, metres gained etc?

The basic fact about johnson's selections is that everyone else, and i mean almost everyone, had said that he should be selecting foden, ashton, youngs, cole etc a good while before he decided that he should. and thats never good.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

espnscrum.com

 

[Peat]

Johnson' PR man?

Just telling it like it is.

As England coach, he's had 3 years to prepare for this world cup, and the largest player base, plus a very strong domestic competition, to select from. The talent's always been there for him.

Really? When he started the likes of Youngs, Lawes, Simpson, Tuilagi, Sharples, Corbierso and so on were under 20. England have undergone a lost generation, a generation that barely produced any international talent. Its only really with the academies things have picked up. Its not perfect yet. We're still seriously considering Louis Deacon for crying out loud. There have been, and still, inadequacies in England's player base.

Yet we go into this world cup with a sketchy back row, with just two possible options at 10, with no idea who to play in the centres, and with a slow and unprolific winger (who happens to be the best option that's been tried out...)

Name me a country that has three genuine options at 10 in their squad they'd be happy to start in a serious game. There isn't one. The closest you'd get is probably Wales. Maybe South Africa. Ireland only have two top class fly-halves, Slade's not proven, Giteau's dropped...

The back row is sketchy due to injury. The centre partnership should have been sorted long before this, but thankfully it looks like Johnson might have worked it out in the nick of time. I've already said a replacement should have been found for Cueto before this.

Compare that to Robbie Deans, who's had the same period of time to prepare for this world cup, just that he's coach of a country that barely cares about rugby union and has barely five professional teams to select from. Yet they've beaten the All Blacks twice in the last two years and have just won the tri nations, and are rightfully second-favourites to win the RWC.

Deans had the luxury of taking some beatings while he threw in youngster after youngster. Johnson didn't.

Who's Johnson picked as 'breakthrough' players who've proven a success?
Dan Cole, 6N 2010. ****ing obvious since he was tearing up the premiership and England had no tighthead.
Courtney Lawes, again ****ing obvious but [strike]could[/strike] should have been involved more in 6N 2010.
Tom Wood, not for want of trying to pick Fourie, Worsley, Moody, and about anyone else not good enough/ not English in the back row.
Ben Youngs, another one you'd be to stupid to miss.
Manu Tuilagi, ****ing obvious.
Chris Ashton, only for the Australia tour when he was probably ready beforehand.
Ben Foden, only after four shockers from Delon.
Delon Armitage, with England in a fullback crisis, as the only guy fit (despite having been one of the best in the prem for two seasons beforehand).

Sorry, does picking a player only count if no one else had thought of it? Tuilagi's in about as early as possible. Foden was in the moment he learnt how to play full-back (see the Northampton - Munster HC game where he was woeful in his breakthrough season for evidence of problems along the way). Ashton still has defensive problems. Ben Youngs had only forced his way into the Tigers first team the season Johnson had picked him. Seem to recall Wood was playing Championship rugby the season before Johnson played him (or maybe it was the season before). Some of them have been a little slow, Johnson has a clear preference towards acclimitising a player to international rugby gradually when he can. I'd also count Corbierso, who wasn't an obvious pick, but has dne very well.

Pat on the back for them, but then, since it's his job to watch the premiership and pick talented English guys (and build them into a team to compete for the 2011 world cup), not that big a pat for him.

How about those he's missed?

problems in the back row, no caps for Chris Robshaw. No out-and-out 7, but when has Andy Saull (or even Steffon Armitage) been involved? One game given to Crane, nothing to Narraway and not enough to Haskell at 8, not to mention the likes of Dowson, etc.

The Robshaw situation annoys me, but he has already captained England in non-capped games (vs. NZ Maori f'instance). Steffon Armitage has 5 senior caps and hasn't done enough in them. Andy Saull's only 22, you could have picked him last 6N but then you'd be *****ing that he ignored Tom Wood. Saull has Saxons caps though. Jordan Crane is crap. James Haskell doesn't play 8 for his club which is a massive barrier to playing him there for England. Ditto Dowson. Luke Narraway's omission annoys me as he does start at 8. Has been involved in the Saxons though.

Joe Simpson goes to the RWC without a cap.

The mistake here is taking Joe Simpson to the World Cup, not capping him. However, he would have been on the tour down under last summer if he hadn't got injured in the Baabaas game.

Owen Farrell spent the summer ****ing around with the U20s despite just having won Saracens the premiership. Why wasn't he even in the EPS??

Because he's not good enough yet. He did well with Sarries in a limited role and definitley has a big future, but he's not yet there.

Two best 12s in the premiership, Allen and Barritt, might go down with Cole, Lawes, Youngs etc. in the ****ing obvious category. Yet no sign of them.

This one really annoys me, yet I am forced to admit they're far from guranteed successes at international level. Still better than Hape.

Back 3 spaces, and we've seen nothing of Topsy Ojo since he scored 2 tries in 2 caps on a **** tour of NZ, plus a lot of solid premiership form since. We've seen nothing of Simpson-Daniel. We've seen 15 minutes of Charlie Sharples. And nothing of James Short.

Topsy Ojo's had a lot of injuries. So's Simpson-Daniel (although that one is still criminal). Sharples is only 22. Debatably should have had more time but he's only pushed his way into the reckoning recently. Short's even younger, wasn't this his breakthrough season?

Yet we've seen Matt Banahan, Shontayne Hape, Ayoola Erinle etc. get thrust into the England starting lineup, often out of position, on a number of different occasions.

Johnson doesn't like rookies, fact. If they stare him in the face and there's no one old/ foreign/ from rugby league/ from Bath who we could possibly call up, then they'll get a go. Otherwise, he doesn't like rookies.

He could have picked Wood/Payne/Flatman ahead of Corbierso.

He could have kept picking Deacon/Shaw/Palmer/Kennedy ahead of Lawes.

He could have picked Wigglesworth ahead of Youngs.

He only picked Erinle after Geraghty failed.

He could have picked Balshaw/Vainikolo/Cohen ahead of Ashton.

And so on. Part of having the biggest playing base in the world is having tons of options.

He's far from a perfect selector. But generally, he picks the player he thinks is best, and doesn't mind if that player is young. He does factor experience into how good a player is, but thats the right thing to do. The cold facts of the matter, as can be gleaned from looking at his selections, is that he's not anti-rookie. Not always the best judge of a player, yes. Gives too much precedence to defence and bulk, yes. A bit too much emphasis on wins and not enough on developing teams, yes.

Anti-Rookie, no.

I am not wildly happy about where we are. But I am satisfied that we're about as good as we can be at this moment (which is not very good). Johnson was handed a plate of dogshit after Andy Robinson and has slowly polished the turd. Very slowly, but then he's been learning how to be a coach at the same time. The fact that of our best players, half are 23 are or under says volumes as to the quality of the generation between 2003 and now. Better should come, but its not there yet because the players aren't old enough.

 

[calculon]

England are going into the world cup having won one 6N ***le (and no grand slams), and one 1-1 draw on tour of Australia plus one home win as our only positives against the tri nations in recent years. If we're happy with that and 'confident in our team' then we really ought to expect better.

It was more or less the same for the 2007 world cup. You did terrible in all away tests but got to the final of the RWC.
Can it happen again? Of course.

 

[stus768]

Because he's not good enough yet. He did well with Sarries in a limited role and definitley has a big future, but he's not yet there.

How is playing Fly-half a limited role?

 

[gingergenius]

It was more or less the same for the 2007 world cup. You did terrible in all away tests but got to the final of the RWC.
Can it happen again? Of course.

if we make the final this year it will do exactly the same as last time and convince the rfu/ management that actually, england are pretty good. Whereas what I want is for England to go into a world cup, as we did in 2003, knowing we're the best, having beaten everyone else home and away to prove it... or at least, go into a world cup knowing we can perhaps beat the best, which is the situation Australia are in right now. England don't look like they can beat the All Blacks in a million years.

Which brings me on to peat, who, forgive me, seems to be making excuses for Johnson. As I already said, blooding the likes of Cole and Lawes is what he's there to do, a national coach should barely get any plaudits for picking high-performing premiership players - that's his job. So no, picking them doesn't really count as a plus, not just because me (or many others) would have done so first, but simply because you'd be a fool not to.

The rest of your points, peat, are simply making excuses. Saying Johnson could have picked someone known to be **** isn't a bonus. He's the national coach. I don't want my national coach to be picking anyone who's not up to scratch - ignoring players who could possibly be good is criminal.

Saying someone's been involved with the Saxons means **** all if a halfwit is ahead of them in the first team squad. Saying someone's only just had their breakthrough season means **** all when they're still not involved in any senior England squads over the summer - after all, Tuilagi's just had his breakthrough season...

Johnson, you say, inherited dogshit from Andy Robinson. Wrong.

RWC 2007, Brian Ashton ****s up and the likes of Dallaglio, Corry, Catt, Vickery etc. get us into the final by sheer willpower. After this was the time to get rid of the veterans, start playing around with combinations, and preparing for the 2011 world cup. Which means rookies.

6N 2008 Brian Ashton decides to continue with the same bunch and we have a boring 6N that does no good for anyone. Then, 6 months too late, we get rid of Ashton.

So, we go to NZ with a bunch of guys like Haskell, Rees, Ojo, Brown etc. who are young and as yet untried (why not in the 6N???.....).

And by Autumn 2008, because of an inevitably unsuccessful tour, we revert back to type - the media's on our back so let's pick an old warhorse or two, mongrel our way to victory, and worry about the future later.

It all comes in to Summer 2010 before Johnson realises a world cup is just over a year away and we can't muddle and mongrel our way through, because Shaw, Worsley etc. simply won't be capable of 80 minutes by the time of RWC 2011. So then the useful youngsters in the premiership come through. After that, England start playing some decent rugby. But of course, we can't have it all our own way, and illogical selections like Banahan and Hape are maintained.

Point is - we may not have had the talent emerge all at the end of 2007. But we could have started building then, and at least had something concrete to throw new players into. As it is, we've had an inconsistent mess of players who aren't world class coming in and doing a short-term job for the team, getting in the way of long term options. And the fault lies at the feet of the coach.

 

[Peat]

How is playing Fly-half a limited role?

Its a limited role when your main duties are to kick, tackle, and pass the ball to Brad Barritt and Alex Goode to do the playmaking.

Which brings me on to peat, who, forgive me, seems to be making excuses for Johnson. As I already said, blooding the likes of Cole and Lawes is what he's there to do, a national coach should barely get any plaudits for picking high-performing premiership players - that's his job. So no, picking them doesn't really count as a plus, not just because me (or many others) would have done so first, but simply because you'd be a fool not to.

I'm not making excuses. I'm simply pointing out the facts behind some of his decisions. Some of his decisions are bad. Some of them are very bad. Some of them are good. Some have been very good.

Recalling Tom Palmer, for example. Picking Corbierso. I notice you had nothing to say on that decision, which would seem to fit your criteria of praiseworthy (non-obvious talented young player). Or nothing to say on the fact he couldn't physically play Saull and Wood at the same time.

Picking Hape looked foolish at the time and looks even stupider now. The continued existence of both Cueto and Banahan is baffling. I'd have certainly taken Sharples. The fact he thinks Banahan is a centre pains me.

Leaving those aside, what would you have done differently? Thrown Ben Foden into the Autumn Internationals after a very bad game against Munster? If you say "Play Alex Goode instead of Ugo Monye" I'll agree, but Foden was not the answer then. Name me the lock you'd replace Simon Shaw and Louis Deacon with.

Oh, and I meant to say Ashton instead of Robinson. Brainfart moment. Neither left him a squad. You say the young talent was there in 2008 - Cole wasn't, Lawes wasn't, Youngs wasn't, Ashton wasn't, Tuilagi wasn't, and Foden hadn't realised he was a full-back yet. Thats six of the starting line up. Hartley and Croft had only just arrived, Johnson gave them both their first starts I believe. That's 8. In the squad, Corbierso wasn't there then, Wilson wasn't there then, Wood wasn't there then, Simpson wasn't there then. Armitage had just arrived, against Johnson was the first guy to give him a start. The only good young players he really inherited were Haskell and Flood. Based on that, I think its inaccurate to say that the talent was there in 2008, and to say he hasn't given it a go.

 

[gingergenius]

The fact that England go to this world cup with no natural 12s in the squad, no idea who to pick in the centres, a big head-scratch around the balance of the back row, and an old fart on the wing, when there's been talent available and time to try it out, means Johnson's not done his job properly.

I don't care about Tuilagi. We could have someone as boring as Tindall at 13 and it would all be fine if we had a ballplayer at 12. On the tour of Australia 2010, we could have started with Allen or Barritt at 12, given them a run, because they were the best in the prem that season. As it is Hape was squeezed in. AIs, and because Youngs, Flood, Ashton and the pack played well, everyone ignored the centres. Another opportunity missed. And 6N this year, because of the so-called success of last autumn (2 wins, 2 losses at home) the team was largely unchanged. Another opportunity missed. And then picking the squad for the summer, with 3 warm up games pre-RWC, another opportunity missed. At all of these opportunities, along with Barkley, those two were the best 12s in the prem, playing at a high level with the best teams, and both fit, and both in good form. But never involved in anything beyond Saxons.

Back row wise, he's wasted a ridiculous amount of time picking Worsley, picking non opensides at 7, picking journeymen South Africans, and not finding a suitable backup to Nick Easter at 8. Again undeniable.

And wing wise, he's looked at the out-and-out speedsters, and picked Monye, who in a straight line is quick but lacks the footwork and all round game of some others. In fact, Ojo is pretty quick but can also defend well, step well and pick nice lines, but he's been discarded after a fairly successful (by individual standards) tour of NZ. He's dabbled with Strettle, whose defence is poor, but never picked him much anyway. He's not dabbled at all with JSD. Sharples and/ or Short should have been involved in the warmups this Summer, certainly ahead of Banahan.

And as a third 10, we've got Hodgson, who is arguably the Premiership 10 of the decade, but has never ever (whatever Olyy might say) performed in an England shirt. Owen Farrell has just won Saracens a ***le, and might have been worth a shot in the warmups instead of Hodgson - hell if we need a replacement 10 out there, Hodgson's not going to show anything new in a warmup game that you didn't already know...

So, I don't care about the Ashtons, Lawes, Fodens, Coles of this world. As manager of the largest and wealthiest union in the world, I'd expect Martin Johnson to be able to find them. The fact he's not found others to cover over the gaps highlighted in my first paragraph means that, to me, he's not done his job well enough. Me and a number of others on this site have been banging on about it for several years, so it's not like these players have been hidden from him. He's chosen some very wrong options, which is why our squad now looks imbalanced and flaky. I have high standards for a national coach, and going into a world cup, this isn't good enough.

 

[Peat]

This is turning into a different debate. The original assertion was that Johnson doesn't pick rookies and thats what I answered - and Lawes/Youngs/Ashton etc.etc are very relevant to that debate. Because they were rookies and Johnson backed them.

The selection stuff is something else. Some of it I agree with. The 12 situation is ridiculous. But then, Flutey was the playmaking 12 in the training squad, and god help us, he was worse than Hape. Incidentally, there's a Guardian interview somewhere out there featuring Brian Smith saying some very worrying things about centres. However, we know our first centre partnership now. Its Tindall and Tuilagi. Oh, and Barkley's had his chances for England and blown them. Not suitable.

Haskell is Easter's backup at 8. He's not bad there. Its a shame he doesn't play 8 for this club. However, there are very few Englishmen who play 8 regularly for their club. Narraway is one, but he's injury prone and wasn't available for the World Cup training squad even if he was available. Then there's Jordan Crane, who's not good enough and also wouldn't have been available through injury.

So what was Johnson meant to do, produce a new club 8 by magic? Just because we're the biggest union in the world doesn't mean we have all the answers. He can't force the clubs to pick players where he wants them to. There is a massive shortage of English 8s. Just like there is a shortage of English locks. Just like there is a shortage of English test quality opensides who can stay fit. Moody - test quality but breaks. Rees - better quality, even more broken. Armitage - Was tried, not good enough. Wood - Possibly the answer. Saull - Deserves a go, but we were busy trying out Armitage and Wood.

Topsy Ojo has had big injury problems. James Simpson-Daniel breaks the moment he's put near an England shirt. They're fit now (although JSD got ill in the WC training camp) but Ojo at least wasn't a squad building option. Still should have been parachuted in ahead of Ojo I agree.

Out of curiousity, do you think Graham Henry is a bad coach for not picking a specialist winger, an established test quality back-up fly-half, an established test quality back-up openside, and his in form loosehead? New Zealand have the best rugby culture and academies after all. Surely he'd be able to find the talent...

edit: One last point. Johnson is picking for a gameplan. He intends to beat sides up and suffocate them to death. Strength and defence are key. He has picked his squad around that. Which is a reason exciting but less imposing players are getting left behind.

Disagree with the initial decision on how to play, but once made, he's at least following through with it.

 

[j-dawg]

People are looking into this too much. The way I see it is....
-Johnson is Captain
-England win world cup
-Johnson retires with others (including Clive)
-Dark years ensue with Robinson and Ashton.
-England do appalling.
-Johnson is Coach
- England win in Cardiff,Dublin, AUSTRALIA and the 6 nations for first time since 2003.

You can't throw rookies into an unsettled side and expect them to do well. *cough* Mathew Tait

 

[calculon]

People are looking into this too much. The way I see it is....
-Johnson is Captain
-England win world cup
-Johnson retires with others (including Clive)
-Dark years ensue with Robinson and Ashton.
-England do appalling.
-Johnson is Coach
- England win in Cardiff, DUBLIN , Australia and the 6 nations for first time since 2003.

You can't throw rookies into an unsettled side and expect them to do well. *cough* Mathew Tait

Fixed that for you! That's your first win against us in the last four meetings and in 3 years in Dublin I believe, with our most dangerous and attack-minded players on the bench. Enjoy!!

Also, Australia have come good just before a world cup ..as usual. I think it would be hard for you guys to repeat that win now.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

To be fair, Tait played well as a rookie - it's when he was more experienced he went to pots :lol:

I swear someone just compared Cueto to Banahan up there....

 

[JW.]

Hope Tait can retain some of his form of 07. Or atleast get injured less. Im a Tait fan .

And ofcourse we can still beat the Aussies, but not if we play like we played vs Ireland/Wales .

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agreed - though I can't see it happening, he needs extended game time in the same position, and to remain injury free, to get better
At Sale he had the 13 shirt, but was injured constantly, at Tigers he won't have a shirt - he's not having the 13 form Tuilagi (and 13 is Taits preferred position), he's not having a starting wing spot from Agulla/Hamilton, and he won't have the 15 from Murphy (and probably be behind Hamilton for that too)
He'll be a utility bench player, getting first XV time during internationals, I reckon

 

[calculon]

Agreed - though I can't see it happening, he needs extended game time in the same position, and to remain injury free, to get better
At Sale he had the 13 shirt, but was injured constantly, at Tigers he won't have a shirt - he's not having the 13 form Tuilagi (and 13 is Taits preferred position), he's not having a starting wing spot from Agulla/Hamilton, and he won't have the 15 from Murphy (and probably be behind Hamilton for that too)
He'll be a utility bench player, getting first XV time during internationals, I reckon

Dammit, can you not at least try to stay on topic rather than re-posting your overrated non-achieving young players! lol
Pick various 15 man teams.

I will soon select 2 x Irish 15 man teams - one national side-esque, and one very young-Leinster top-heavy (attack-minded)

 

[Logorrhea]

PS: Am I the only one who would still start Flood over Wilko if it came down to it?

Yeah Wilko looked limited to be honest. Flood is a bit suspect under pressure (I'm being nice), but when things go well (as they were against Ireland) he'll get your backline moving and add points.

 

[calculon]

Hope Tait can retain some of his form of 07. Or atleast get injured less. Im a Tait fan .

And ofcourse we can still beat the Aussies, but not if we play like we played vs Ireland/Wales .

You have a remote chance of beating the Aussies, and yes, you didn't particularly excel given that Ireland were missing several of their most dangerous players, and didn't seem to place as much emphasis on the game as England did.

Losing against France hurt because they're actually good

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dammit, can you not at least try to stay on topic rather than re-posting your overrated non-achieving young players!

Ironic considering he's been further in a world cup than Ireland ever have!

Ooooh, bbbuuurrrnnnn