Spring Tour:New Zealand vs Ireland - 1st Test. (09/06/2012, 08:35 GMT)

[Larksea]

funny, watched the game with a group of friends and some of them were real Thomson fans cheering him on. After he scored his try one (great work from Kieran Read) of them wondered what his celebration means and I told him that he's taken it from a guy in WWF/WWE pro wrestling (which he has)

lets just say they are not such big fans of him anymore lol.

 

[Dizzy]

funny, watched the game with a group of friends and some of them were real Thomson fans cheering him on. After he scored his try one (great work from Kieran Read) of them wondered what his celebration means and I told him that he's taken it from a guy in WWF/WWE pro wrestling (which he has)

lets just say they are not such big fans of him anymore lol.

I hate that!.. And he doesn't even do it with a smile on his face or any emotion his facial expression is really blank!.... I know if I pulled that off after scoring a try, I'd feel like a dick.

 

[Zapphod]

To be honest SBW just didn't offer anything further that what Nonu would have. He has potential but without the offload his general game isn't as good as Nonu's. I'm not saying he was bad but he seemed to just be underwhelming. I think his offloading game struggled against the tackling tactic of Ireland who like to hit and hold people upright.

I agree, personally I think he is one of those players that can not make the step from super rugby to international rugby.

He is not horrible at the role but at the same time I do not think he is going to set a game alight either and given that he does not seem to want to commit to the sport let alone the team until the next world cup i think we would be better off taking a punt on someone that will make the commitment.

Both Weepu and Ali Williams have no business on this team. I can appreciate loyalty in a coach but this is crazy, there are so many other players in NZ more deserving of an All black call up that seeing these two in the lineup must be really discouraging for young up and coming players. They often talk about the "player drain" in NZ, players taking off for more lucrative overseas contracts while still in their prime. Well this kind of thing has got to be a contributing factor, when players are selected on reputation and past achievements while others sit in the stands who are clearly in form it doesn't take to much enticement to lure them to the UK or France.

I agree with this as well, the form halfback of the 3 experienced halfbacks must be Ellis so if anyone should be there it is him (even though I am not a fan) and how Williams keeps getting selected is beyond me.

 

[Darwin]

I agree, personally I think he is one of those players that can not make the step from super rugby to international rugby.

He is not horrible at the role but at the same time I do not think he is going to set a game alight either and given that he does not seem to want to commit to the sport let alone the team until the next world cup i think we would be better off taking a punt on someone that will make the commitment.

Can't agree with this.... what exactly is this based on? He certainly didn't have his best game in the weekend, with his hands letting him down, but he has had a number of strong test in his limited test career thus far, and looked very comfortable at test level. I'd certainly say he has been far more convincing in test rugby in his first 15 test than Nonu was in his first 15! I think he has the potential to set the game alight at least as much (if not more) than Nonu, and as the form 12 in NZ rugby this season deserves to start the next test (and Nonu will benefit from more rest too). Whether we should be picking someone who isn't likely to be playing rugby in NZ next season (let alone at the next RWC) is an interesting question, and I'm not quite sure what the answer is.....

 

[dan the man]

Ok, firstly... So happy for Savea! a hattrick on debut is very special, especially against a team like Ireland who are definitely a quality side!

Retallick was solid, didn't do too much that was very noticeable but his workrate around the field and at ruck times was very good his defense good to.

Aaron Smith played very well, that pass is very quick. Although his decision making was a bit off at times, but that will only get better.

All in all it was a good showing for the All Blacks first game of the year and a good start for the three new boys! Good effort.

 

[Zapphod]

Can't agree with this.... what exactly is this based on? He certainly didn't have his best game in the weekend, with his hands letting him down, but he has had a number of strong test in his limited test career thus far, and looked very comfortable at test level. I'd certainly say he has been far more convincing in test rugby in his first 15 test than Nonu was in his first 15! I think he has the potential to set the game alight at least as much (if not more) than Nonu, and as the form 12 in NZ rugby this season deserves to start the next test (and Nonu will benefit from more rest too). Whether we should be picking someone who isn't likely to be playing rugby in NZ next season (let alone at the next RWC) is an interesting question, and I'm not quite sure what the answer is.....

It is based on the fact that he hasn't produced anything close to outstanding form in 15 matches for that matter the best you can say about him is that he is adequate.

As far as who should fill the role I am not a Nonu fan either, he has played great rugby in the past but since it is clear Hansen is building for the future I am sure there are plenty of choices who are just as "adequate" as SBW and will commit to being here next year.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

SBW actually had a very good game, the only blemishes being his bad hands. He performed his role very well and drew in a number of defenders, which is what gave Smith so much room to exploit, and Savea so much room to run.

 

[Darwin]

It is based on the fact that he hasn't produced anything close to outstanding form in 15 matches for that matter the best you can say about him is that he is adequate.

As far as who should fill the role I am not a Nonu fan either, he has played great rugby in the past but since it is clear Hansen is building for the future I am sure there are plenty of choices who are just as "adequate" as SBW and will commit to being here next year.

Really? He was pretty outstanding vs Scotland. He had a great game versus South Africa last season. He dominated Canada at the RWC (yes I know it was Canada), and has had a number of other very good games too. Though he isn't as good as some of the hype suggests, he has had a very impressive introduction to test rugby thus far - he has been far more than just 'adequate' in my opinion. I personally can't think of many 12's in world rugby that I'd rather pick ahead of him....

 

[Zapphod]

Really? He was pretty outstanding vs Scotland. He had a great game versus South Africa last season. He dominated Canada at the RWC (yes I know it was Canada), and has had a number of other very good games too. Though he isn't as good as some of the hype suggests, he has had a very impressive introduction to test rugby thus far - he has been far more than just 'adequate' in my opinion. I personally can't think of many 12's in world rugby that I'd rather pick ahead of him....

Yeah and I have no doubt he played a blinder against the North Harbour under 18 Braille team as well but a couple of "ok" games against at best second tier teams does not an All Black make, he hasn't shown the same "skill levels" against serious teams, made a right charlie out of himself against Australia, looked awful in the opening game against South Africa and I am not even sure I recall him taking the field against France in the RWC so he sure as hell didn't win that for us.

Probably the only outstanding thing in SWB's arsenal is his PR team, he is like the government, promises a lot, delivers bugger all and spends a lot of time telling you how good he is.

 

[psychic duck]

why do Kiwis hate SBW?

I can understand TRF_Nickdnz's doubts over his long term commitment to the All Blacks, but I can't understand people saying he isn't a great player.

I watched him live for the Crusaders against the Sharks last year and he was phenomenal, he took two defenders to tackle him and then offloaded out, at one move.

And let's remember, SBW did set up New Zealand's first try against Ireland with a sublime offload, and secondly did make some metres over the gainline, not that he had a perfect game, but there were some elements of his quality.

 

[Darwin]

why do Kiwis hate SBW?

I can understand TRF_Nickdnz's doubts over his long term commitment to the All Blacks, but I can't understand people saying he isn't a great player.

I watched him live for the Crusaders against the Sharks last year and he was phenomenal, he took two defenders to tackle him and then offloaded out, at one move.

And let's remember, SBW did set up New Zealand's first try against Ireland with a sublime offload, and secondly did make some metres over the gainline, not that he had a perfect game, but there were some elements of his quality.

It is strange isn't it. Like you, I can understand people not liking him for his lack of commitment / perceived persona, but I really don't understand how people could watch him play and question his rugby playing ability. The problem may be that he is incredibly over-hyped by much of the media: he is not as good as some of the hype suggests (though he is improving), but he is still a world class rugby player in my opinion.

Yeah and I have no doubt he played a blinder against the North Harbour under 18 Braille team as well but a couple of "ok" games against at best second tier teams does not an All Black make, he hasn't shown the same "skill levels" against serious teams, made a right charlie out of himself against Australia, looked awful in the opening game against South Africa and I am not even sure I recall him taking the field against France in the RWC so he sure as hell didn't win that for us.

Probably the only outstanding thing in SWB's arsenal is his PR team, he is like the government, promises a lot, delivers bugger all and spends a lot of time telling you how good he is.

You really though SBW had 'ok' games against these teams? You obviously have a very different standard for judging rugby players than me. I (and many other rugby pundits - see here, here, and here) thought he was outstanding in these games. And since when has South Africa been a 'second tier' team? Who are the 'serious teams' that he hasn't showed the same skills against? I'm not sure what 'opening game versus South Africa' you are referring too, as he played very well in the two tests against South Africa last year. No-one is evenly remotely claiming SBW "won the rugby world cup for us". He had very little impact in the RWC as Nonu (rightly) dominated the AB's 12 jersey during the RWC playoffs, and I do agree SBW made a complete dick of himself versus Australia.

It is clear you don't like SBW for reasons other than his rugby playing abilities, so there isn't really any point further debating his abilities as a rugby player......

 

[admartian]

Sonny Bill's lack of commitment is great...if he was playing American pro sports. It's not if you play All Blacks rugby (which he currently does ).

To me, his play is usually just below average - above average.



Does he have skill? Yes.

Potential? Absolutely.

But do people fall in love with his potential and get blinded by it? Hell Effing yes!!!

But I don't hold it against anybody. This happens to anyone who has watched and will watch ANY SPORT EVER! You see so many ATHLETES (as opposed to true PLAYERS of their sport).

To me, the best analogy for SBW is Reggie Bush of the NFL. Tons of raw physical tools. But Reggie has not lived up to his hype - Let's face it, He is not someone like Lebron James or Christian Cullen, who are complete athletes and players.

But reggie Bush like SBW, is a good role player. And only NOW entering Bush's 7th/8th year, is he getting to show what could have been (barely at that).



SBW will most likely never CHOOSE to play that long - or even make it to next year!

He is a good situational player - nothing more. And people SHOULD NOT BE HURT by that.

I would like him to stay and reach his potential. After all, who doesn't want depth? But I'm not counting on someone that is probably going to end up on a show like The GC.


I actually think someone like Tamati Ellison is a more complete and focused player. And if people want to be a sucker for potential, someone like Robbie Fruean is a good equivalent and a safer bet at that.

 

[nickdnz]

Some good points there admartian, I have some similar sentiments.

Do I think he is overrated? Yeah, he is. The problem is that he has so much hype surrounding him that I think it would be very difficult for him not to be. He's constantly compared to players in terms of impact like Richie McCaw, Daniel Carter and Jonah Lomu, and those guys are probably the best ever in their positions. When before a match he is the first player mentioned by commentators and subject to constant media articles, it's very difficult not to think "Okay, calm down. He's good but not that important", and what makes it more frustrating was that he got oppertunities that other players didn't and I think much of that is to do with the hype.

That being said I think this has negatives as well. As you can see by some of the Irish responses, the term underwhelmed has been thrown around. He's talked up so much, that it would be very hard for even his most die hard fan to say he performed to his expectations. In his last game I thought he played pretty well. Made some mistakes but he played his part in a team strategy rather than trying to make it "The Sonny Bill Show". Right now I'd say he deserves another start while Nonu rests up, because SBW has been better than Nonu in Super Rugby and for the first time so far I can honestly say his form justifies selection rather than his potential.

The NZRU are responsible for signing SBW and offering him what they did in terms of money and oppertunities I still believe is reprehensible, especially to a novice. I think it was foolish they didn't treat Luke McAlister and give him more oppertunities (despite his tantrum) as I believe he has as much if not more potential than SBW and can cover 1st 5/8th, a position we were short on during the RWC. That money also would have been more wisely spent getting Nick Evans to come back, seeing as he was probably the second best 1st 5/8th in the world behind Carter and again would have been vital during a RWC.

That being said, Sonny Bill Williams hasn't yet given me a real reason to dislike him. He hasn't gotten naked and punched a 60 year old man in Rarotonga or anything like that. He's taken advantage of the NZRU's weakness by boxing without hurting his career and so far he hasn't left overseas. I don't like the lack of commitment he seems to have for the All Blacks but if he stays for another two seasons or so, or better yet the next RWC, I think critics will have to suck it up and say they were wrong. That being said, I'm still far from convinced that is going to happen.

 

[admartian]

You're right Nick, the NZRU is as much if not moreso to blame in all of this.

I think McAlister was ruined by NH rugby (no offense). I think it's good for forwards and all, but backs generally get accustomed to it (depending on the team I suppose) and lose their creativity. McAlister was given what - two seasons to try and figure it out? Granted, he had some injuries, but I think he felt that the game he played up North was more suited to how he felt, rather than what was better for his game.

For Nick Evans, I think he felt (and probably still feels) a bit hurt by the NZRU.

Oh well, we have quality young talent in both positions to not worry for now.

 

[Larksea]

why do Kiwis hate SBW?

bit of tall poppy and the fact he is NZ rugby's first true professional - could say maybe that Thorn was? touch and go...

i say that in terms of the fact he did not come through the NZ system and was signed on a big contract without proving himself in the NZRU landscape, NZ public are not used to seeing that. That's how it works up north but not in NZ.

Fact is in just a couple of years he's worked his way to being the best 12 in NZ and maybe even all super rugby.

Sure he is not willing to commit to NZRU long term but he is 100% committed to what he is currently contracted to, his work ethic is an awesome example for NZ kids looking to get into professional rugby and be successful.

It was a big gamble coming to NZ when he did, but he pulled it off big time IMO. I think it was obvious from his first games in ITM cup that he had the goods.

 

[Larksea]

funny how it was only a matter of weeks ago people were banging down Dan Carters door trying to get rid of him. Funny how all that talk has gone away.

You would think that he would be the one guy NZ should have a little faith in.

he was really good in this test and it didn't even really look like he got into top gear.

 

[donmcdazzle]

SBW is pretty polarising through all the dumb things his management does/says, and he was portrayed in a pretty negative light when he left the Bulldogs. However, if you put all the off field stuff to one side and judge purely on performance then he has easily been NZ's best 12 this year, and was very good in the test against the Irish. He knocked one ball on under no pressure, but otherwise was very good. I'm convinced that if Nonu had the exact same game, he wouldn't be getting the same reaction from some of the SBW detractors who will find a way to say he isn't up to it regardless.

 

[Aedaphon]

Eh let's be frank- people will always hold a bit of a grudge for someone as blatantly professional as SBW. But I'd much rather see someone who comes out and out and declares that their plans aren't formed than a player who declares he'll stay with union for the next 4 years and then buggers off to League if it's going badly.

And on form he's been superior to Nonu for the majority of this season- even if he does bugger off it shouldn't stop him taking a shirt that he's earned through hard graft this season. I think it's a little harsh for people to still be calling him a showboater though- the offloading game was his biggest natural talent when he came over from league and he's worked hard to use it sparingly this season, no going for the 50/50s like we saw last year (although some of those were absolutely awesome).

You can probably tell I'm a fan though :lol:

 

[Zapphod]

why do Kiwis hate SBW?

I can understand TRF_Nickdnz's doubts over his long term commitment to the All Blacks, but I can't understand people saying he isn't a great player.

I watched him live for the Crusaders against the Sharks last year and he was phenomenal, he took two defenders to tackle him and then offloaded out, at one move.

And let's remember, SBW did set up New Zealand's first try against Ireland with a sublime offload, and secondly did make some metres over the gainline, not that he had a perfect game, but there were some elements of his quality.

Kiwi's dislike him for many reasons probably the number one is that he is over-hyped and untrustworthy.

As far as playing for the Crusaders or the Chiefs yeah I agree he is in his element but at test level he is not, this constant rain of dribble about his passing skills and ability to draw defenders is astounding and rather like patting your accountant on the back for being able to add and subtract, it is his job to draw defenders and pass the ball and believe it or not just about every number 12 in the country can do it.

Didn't he also give away our first points?

As I have explained to friends I would most likely have him in a New Zealand A squad to play Japan, Canada or the USA but I would not consider him against teams such as Australia or South Africa.

 

[admartian]

Like I said, blinded...

:lol: