RWC Quarter Final: England - France (08-10-2011, 20:30)

[j'nuh]

BBC Reporting:
RUGBY UNION:


England head coach Martin Johnson to hold press conference in Auckland at 2300 BST

Yeah, I'm not sure whether this is going to be big news, or whether it's just to apologise or something like that. Anyone know where I can watch it?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Resignation on the cards?

 

[JW.]

That would be a weird call from MJ to be honest, he's not a quitter. But the RFU could've persuaded him 'told him'. We need to change our ways anyways and for me that is getting a new manager there changing the system.

 

[stus768]

What RFU?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Resignation on the cards?

Seemingly so or it seems.

 

[Aout]

Well... so we're in final (No, as much as I love Wales, and I really do, we're not going to lose against them).

I feel sorry for Wilko, he was terrible during these world cup games. He really was. It's probably the end of his international career, and one of the last memory he will keep will be Twickenham, this year, when people were "booing" him.
I don't know what happened to him. He plays brilliantly for Toulon, but is awful when he has a rose on his jersey. Is it because of the players he's playing with ? Maybe, but I'm not sure that Toulon backline is more talented than the English one. Because of the poor backline moves England has then ? Or is it just the difference of level between players he's facing ? A top14 player is probably less skilled than an international player. Although I doubt than Romania is a better side than Toulouse.

I like Foden. I like the Ben Foden I saw one year ago, it reminds me Maxime Medard. Same flair, same skills, he's able to carry the ball through defenders like no one else. But he looked poor over the last couple of games he played. He did score a try today, but that was it. Nothing more. How can talented players like Foden or Wilko be completely rubbish when they play together ?

Since I moved in England, I was quite surprise by how the rugby is played at club/amateur/social/university level. It's all about having big lads on the pitch, and giving the ball to the biggest one. Back in France we used to spend half of the training on back moves, and then the other half on back moves with opposition. It does stimulate your creativity, the way you play the game as well, because you know where/what the others backs are doing. It's like playing chess, you know what's happening.
We used to play much deeper than here in England as well, where everyone seems to be on a flat line. The fullback is more involved in moves. And we play much more with the backs, which is allowing our forwards to have some rest.

I'm not saying it's a better way of playing rugby, but it's very different from the "give the ball to he heaviest guy" game plan. And when I see the English backline, I have the same impression.

You got Ashton, Tuilagi, Tindall, Banahan, Cueto. All these guys are much bigger than the likes of Clerc, Palisson, Marty or Estebanez (although Jauzion, Mermoz and Rougerie are quite heavy). But they just don't seem to be able to light that spark that would make the difference.

There's also something very english, being aggressive. It doesn't make you a better player. Today, the guy who was in front of Mas in the scrum (can't remember his name, Stevens ?) was trash talking all the game. Last 6N it was the same thing with Ashton and Hartley. Today, when I was playing this afternoon, the guys around me kept on saying this like "we got to tackle these pieces of ****" etc... I'm not saying that it is not the case in France, but it doesn't reach these levels. And it's the same thing for our national team. Have you ever seen Servat, Mas or Domingo opening their mouth ?
Being aggressive doesn't make you a better player.

And there are many other points (don't get me wrong, there are lot of things that are better on this side of the channel as well, like the way pple talk to referees) but it's lunch time !

 

[JW.]

Agree with the people saying the national team structure is rotten to the core.

It starts with the RFU, who seem to be the same corrupt old boys' club they've always been. But its their appointment of personnel that's been shocking.

Martin Johnson, you are the finest lock forward this country's ever produced. You are not the finest manager. 3 years is more than enough to build a team, but it wasn't until last year's summer tour that the stars of England's future were coming into place. As I and others highlighted when the EPS was announced, and later when the final 30 was announced, they were imbalanced squads with some glaring omissions. And even into this world cup your selections have been conservative to say the least.

Coaching has not helped. I don't know what Brian Smith thinks he's being paid for, seeing as England never ever look like a side who can score a try at will when the pressure's on. Defensively there is room for improvement, as does England's kicking game. But most importantly is lineouts, which as set piece plays are fundamental to England's game plan. We cannot keep losing them. Rowntree's doing a decent job with the scrum.

And someone, somewhere, including the players has to explain why the French looked like they wanted it more than we did. That is embarrassing. In fact, of today's performances I thought Easter, Flood and Tuilagi were working their ******** off for the team, but where was everyone else?

Player wise, it's simple. Thanks for your services, but the old guard can be put out to pasture NOW. The England setup has a lot off classy players left around whom to build a squad, and can we please start picking people based on how well they play in the Premiership!!! Most urgent seem to me to be an openside, 8, another 10 and a 12. But whoever sticks their hands up should be quickly integrated.

One more thing - to the guys like Youngs, Lawes and Croft, they need to realise that the RWC is the biggest stage and there is no excuse for going missing there. We've got plenty of young talent, but why is it that the Welsh, Kiwis and Aussies continually pick people just out of school who look like class players every time, and the English produce inconsistency of the highest degree. Again, coaching is probably a major factor.

Good post! I agree some of the guys didn't seem to realise what was at stake. It's England-France and as if that wasen't enough motivation it was at the f*ckin world cup. I've said it before in this thread, people keep on going on about that England know how to win matches and have a will to win. That was 03 and a bit of 07. This England squad hasen't got that yet, hell they haven't even got the will to win on todays performance. Reboot our system, get some new blood in Wade, Farrel, Allen, Fearns etc. build a squad for the next 2 years. Hell lose the Sixnations I don't care (we shouldn't though as we have quality players) as long as we show some intent to improve our England squad. MJ has shown he hasen't got the experience or the skills to be a succesfull manager YET(don't be to harsh it was his first job lol). Rebuild our structure like Sir Clive Woodward did back in the golden days.

I feel sorry for Wilko, he was terrible during these world cup games. He really was. It's probably the end of his international career, and one of the last memory he will keep will be Twickenham, this year, when people were "booing" him.
I don't know what happened to him. He plays brilliantly for Toulon, but is awful when he has a rose on his jersey. Is it because of the players he's playing with ? Maybe, but I'm not sure that Toulon backline is more talented than the English one. Because of the poor backline moves England has then ? Or is it just the difference of level between players he's facing ? A top14 player is probably less skilled than an international player. Although I doubt than Romania is a better side than Toulouse.

Indeed just didn't seem to come out like it used to. Didn't help in attack that Youngs didn't have a very good wc. But not sure what im more sad about that this could've been Jonny Wilkinson last game for England or the actual loss. The loss in the longrun might turn out allright, cause in 07 because we reached the final. The English rugby system seemed fine when ofcourse it wasen't. Had not been fine since Woodward left. Heres hoping for some actual changes.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What RFU?

The​ RFU, there's only one....

 

[stus768]

The​ RFU, there's only one....

As in it's a shambles and none really knows who's in charge.

 

[j-dawg]

deleted

 

[Seaton]

Ach, set my alarm buzzing to watch Johnson greetin' on the telly, but alas they are nae showing it here

Fits happening?

 

[j'nuh]

The reason JW doesn't play well for England is because we don't have the forwards to play the tight game that Wilkinson requires. In 03 and 07, you'd argue that most of our memorable, talented players were in the pack. A strong pack will give you territory and possession. Coupled with a decent tactical kicker, and you can win the game primarily with the players 1-10. Two things stop us from continuing this: the way rugby is played has changed, and we no longer have the pack to overwhelm teams. Whether it's because other teams have caught up or we've gone backwards (or a mixture of both), there's no way that our forwards have the upper hand against most packs. In fact, I'd argue that most packs amongst the QFs were better than ours. Our backrow was ineffective (perhaps the worst of the remaining QFists?), our scrum was weak with Stevens at 1, we have a few good locks but chose not to play them. When we didn't get forwards dominance, we didn't make it over the gain line as often and we infringed more often. This meant that we couldn't put in enough phases to get as far up the pitch to provide JW with the kicking platform he needed. To demonstrate this: how many kickable penalties did we have today?

Nowadays our strongest players are in our backline: Tuilagi, Foden, Ashton. A running/distributing 10 is needed to get the ball to these players. I don't think Wilkinson is a bad player, I just think that the way he plays, and the way England should play, are opposed.

 

[Surefire]

Well... so we're in final (No, as much as I love Wales, and I really do, we're not going to lose against them)
QUOTE]

Nothing like a win to get the optimism going!

Way to go France, I did not expect that at all and it was a great surprise. (The V-cash win is always nice!) I thought the team played well, and in unison, they all seemed to be on the same page. I am hoping this carries forward into the next game. The tackling was great, and after a while I actually felt comfortable that France would win. Big fan of Trihn Duc, so glad he got his drop goal in!

I feel for Wilkinson, he gets the lion share of the blame but that is the nature of his position. Tuliagi did look good, and I also thought Flood played well. Looking back, maybe Haskell should have started.

Not as confident as Aout here about the the game against Wales, but at least we are in the semis which I after Tonga did not think we could get there. really enjoyed watching Wales play earlier, and they look nothing like the team from 6N tourney. They looked good against South Africa in the first pool game, but yesterday the team was even better.

La coupe continue!!

 

[Amiga500]

Hell lose the Sixnations I don't care (we shouldn't though as we have quality players)

Seriously?


You expecting them to rebuild and keep winning the 6 nations at the same time?

(Which incidentally, probably requires you to beat the team that beat you today...)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Press conference doesn't seem to be anything interesting, the RFU are tweeting quotes from it, it's all just standard post-loss press crap
Such as:

Andrew: "We will be doing a robust review to look at where the squad is & how to take them forward. We have to take stock & not overreact."

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Johno: "Emotions are still running high so close to the game. It's just disappointing for everyone involved, the fans here and at home."

"We made errors at kick-offs, lost a few lineouts, & when you add those errors up all up you're looking at an exit press conference."

Andrew: "We will be doing a robust review to look at where the squad is & how to take them forward. We have to take stock & not overreact."

 

[j'nuh]

Seriously?


You expecting them to rebuild and keep winning the 6 nations at the same time?

(Which incidentally, probably requires you to beat the team that beat you today...)

I think most teams will need to rebuild after this WC (except for Wales)... so I don't see why we can't challenge whilst rebuilding.

 

[Surefire]

Looking over the game again, and Mermoz had a good game under the radar. Not a big fan of his, but he was solid in this outing.

 

[kovana]

Thank you France,. Even thou was betting on England to win..

Would be a mad case of Deja vu if France and NZ got to the Final...

 

[barthelemy]

The reason JW doesn't play well for England is because we don't have the forwards to play the tight game that Wilkinson requires. In 03 and 07, you'd argue that most of our memorable, talented players were in the pack. A strong pack will give you territory and possession. Coupled with a decent tactical kicker, and you can win the game primarily with the players 1-10. Two things stop us from continuing this: the way rugby is played has changed, and we no longer have the pack to overwhelm teams. Whether it's because other teams have caught up or we've gone backwards (or a mixture of both), there's no way that our forwards have the upper hand against most packs. In fact, I'd argue that most packs amongst the QFs were better than ours. Our backrow was ineffective (perhaps the worst of the remaining QFists?), our scrum was weak with Stevens at 1, we have a few good locks but chose not to play them. When we didn't get forwards dominance, we didn't make it over the gain line as often and we infringed more often. This meant that we couldn't put in enough phases to get as far up the pitch to provide JW with the kicking platform he needed. To demonstrate this: how many kickable penalties did we have today?

Nowadays our strongest players are in our backline: Tuilagi, Foden, Ashton. A running/distributing 10 is needed to get the ball to these players. I don't think Wilkinson is a bad player, I just think that the way he plays, and the way England should play, are opposed.

Moody, Easter and Croft did not exist compared to Dussautoir, Bonnaire or Harinordoquy and it has allowed France back line to play with space. Wilko needs space to express himself so mainly some strong back row and a dominant forward pack. But he missed quite a lot of penalties...So the weakness of the english forward pack is not the only explanation for the failure of Wilkinson.

About the backline, England did not find the right combination since Andrew, Guscott , Carling and Underwood in my humble opinion... Even if they had their good moment like the slap we took in 2009 (??) 34-10 <_<