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England 2023/24

I give it three years before this new deal collapses. Clubs don't seem particularly happy with what they have felt obliged to agree. Borthwick must also know if he is seen as struggling he will now have clubs who will be pushing for changes or even his removal via press leaks. Could eventually see some clubs being happy if big name English players are not on their books.

Also whoever writes for the BBC really doesn't like the RFU. After frequent mentions in articles that are negative about not selecting non English based players the deal is written up very negatively.
 
LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) said:
Have a feeling if Kelly misses out on the AI's he will move to ireland next season.
Hopefully under Cheika he will have a big start.
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In an ideal would he gets called up this autumn, with Slade out, and we get a look at a Kelly/Lawrence midfield with both of them in their preferred positions
 
I think people just have very different definitions of competitive and some just throw the word in to fill a space without wider context, in the current European context to me the prem clubs gave a very good account of themselves and exceeded my expectations, they were competitive against most clubs but really struggle to go toe to toe with the top 2 or 3 clubs, Sarries had a dynasty which now looks to be over, Exe enjoyed a good season in a weird covid season, I can't see any Premiership team consistently getting to the finals, it is true that Leinster have not won the thing for some time but they have been there or there abouts for an age narrowly missing out at the final hurdle, they also have the depth to compete on two fronts rest players etc, that's simply a luxury prem teams don't appear to have, we all have our opinions on things, what's clear to me is that the premiership is in decline something needs to be done, the same people I see complain constantly about its flaws are the same that want to pick holes in every attempt to make change, whilst usually offering few if any viable alternatives.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
It is weird the standards the Prem is held to - especially when people point to the Irish system when Leinster are the only team to have won it since telly was in black and white and two different English clubs have won it since the last time Leinster did

Obv not saying the prem is perfect, nor am I bad mouthing the provincial system in Ireland, just saying I think we win it about as much as you'd expect, especially considering the money in France
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In the Champions Cup era since 14/15, Fra have won 5, Ire 1 and Eng 4 although 3 of those were Sarries in what we must call the salary cap years that people are usually all too ready to give them a kicking for.

10 finals - 20 teams. 11 Fra, 5 Ire and 4 Eng. Ire all Leinster - they're who the national team is based on. The English finals are shared between just 2 clubs - Exeter and Sarries neither of who look likely to repeat any time soon. The 11 French appearances are shared between 5 clubs - 4 separate French clubs have won and 4 of the 5 have appeared in multiple finals.

So what does that tell us? Probably that we don't have the focus and structure of the Irish nor the breadth of talent and firepower of the French. Which we knew.

Undoubtedly the Prem clubs did better as a whole than expected last year but at the end of the day they weren't in at the pointy end or spraying the champagne which is probably a good proxy for the national team - generally heading in a reasonable direction but not yet quite good enough.
 
Jimbo said:
I think people just have very different definitions of competitive and some just throw the word in to fill a space without wider context, in the current European context to me the prem clubs gave a very good account of themselves and exceeded my expectations, they were competitive against most clubs but really struggle to go toe to toe with the top 2 or 3 clubs, Sarries had a dynasty which now looks to be over, Exe enjoyed a good season in a weird covid season, I can't see any Premiership team consistently getting to the finals, it is true that Leinster have not won the thing for some time but they have been there or there abouts for an age narrowly missing out at the final hurdle, they also have the depth to compete on two fronts rest players etc, that's simply a luxury prem teams don't appear to have, we all have our opinions on things, what's clear to me is that the premiership is in decline something needs to be done, the same people I see complain constantly about its flaws are the same that want to pick holes in every attempt to make change, whilst usually offering few if any viable alternatives.
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So what would you use to describe competitive then as you seem to have made up your mind and are trying to backwards fit your narrative to reality.

And let's not forget reality, the premiership teams competed well in Europe, despite the funding issue we were no wales or Scotland or Italy. Then let's not forget that Ulster and Connacht are also Irish and didn't really compete.
 
On Kelly, he needs to establish himself as the first choice 12 at tigers before he's back in the international conversation. With Kata at the club I just don't see that happening.

The hunt for the elusive all round English 12 continues.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
On Kelly, he needs to establish himself as the first choice 12 at tigers before he's back in the international conversation. With Kata at the club I just don't see that happening.

The hunt for the elusive all round English 12 continues.
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Under the new contract if Borthwick really really wanted him he could give him a central contract and put a lot of pressure of him to start at club level as welll.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
On Kelly, he needs to establish himself as the first choice 12 at tigers before he's back in the international conversation. With Kata at the club I just don't see that happening.

The hunt for the elusive all round English 12 continues.
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I think at International Level we'll be using Lawrence at 12 for a little while yet, and look for a 13...maybe Will Joseph who i think can be a hell of a player?

On the domestic / developing 12 front theres a few we keep name checking regularly and i still think the answer can come from that group.....just need them to really push on this season i think.

1. Kelly - as mentioned above.
2. How will Ollie Hartley recover from his knee injury?
3. Can Max Ojomoh drive on and make that starting 12 shirt his at Bath over Redpath.
4. Quins have lost big Andre and not signed anyone...which makes me think Anwanyu could be lining up for that spot. He has the tools to be a very good alround 12, but inexperienced. Be interesting to see what they do, as they have Beard also and Northmore.
 
Basic colours are fine although close up all the diamond pattern stuff doesn't really work for me. Also wish there was a nod to a traditional rugby shirt collar style to stop it looking like an over designed T Shirt.

£80 for the men's and 64 for the junior if you want a replica. The pro version which is presumably what's in the pic are £117 and £90 for the kids. Strikes me as pretty pricey although not really out of line with club / wendyball stuff.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
So what would you use to describe competitive then as you seem to have made up your mind and are trying to backwards fit your narrative to reality.

And let's not forget reality, the premiership teams competed well in Europe, despite the funding issue we were no wales or Scotland or Italy. Then let's not forget that Ulster and Connacht are also Irish and didn't really compete.
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really unsure where you are going with this, it's been mentioned numerous times that English clubs are unfairly characterised as not being competitive in Europe, all I did was offer a theory that perhaps competitive doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone.

Is competitive

A - Make the knock out stages consistently over time, even if losing by a small margin but being there or there abouts, benefitting from favourable home fixtures due to previous performances.

B - Being able to do well in the group stages, not getting those desirable favourable home fixtures but doing well against those outside of the best 3 or 4, never really looking like winning the thing.

There are many factors here, in the context of multiple seasons not just this many prem teams got this far this season.

I don't think there is a right or wrong just simply a perception.
 
Funnily enough despite almost every top English' side losing multiple key players over the summer (Farrell, Vunipola's, Lawes, Ludlum, Moon, Esterhuizen, Collier, etc etc etc) i think an English club will win it next season...

There's some very good and physical sides in this prem.

Each team has new players looking to replace club legends in some cases and in others you have players looking to claim starting spots for their club whilst pushing England ambitions.

Thats all "hopefully" going to drive the standards up, even at the bottom of the league, where my Falcons who were truly truly awful last season should be a much better side this season, which will hopefully mean even playing the bottom side is a harder game this season...

All of this should hopefully help to drive up the the standards of the league..
 
Know nothing about him, but someone is better than no one so good to get someone in in good time before the AIs so they can plan
 
inconceivable.jpg
 

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