England 2023/24

[TRF_Olyy]

I didn't know that was why he was released.

Legal disclaimer: I did read this on Reddit
But the timelines do matchup and it was a bit of a surprise when he left mid-season as he was playing regularly

 

[Geordie]

Not you specifically but seen a number of people waxing lyrical about him, and how he'll turn England's forwards around, when in reality all he's done is start Painter, who was already closing in on 100 Prem appearances so not exactly plucked from nowhere

Well personally I can see him in the A team game but I wouldn't have him in the 6n.

I think the reason people are going on about him is the simple lack of other options.

Cole has played well since his recall but is in retirement stages.

Stuart has the physical requirements yet just doesn't give any confidence at England level. He's done OK this season particularly the performance v Ulster..but he needs to show alot more than that...

And then......Sinckler just looks to be going backwards constantly and looks even less interested...

Hayes is hardly pulling trees up..and as discussed above the kids are well....kids.

So people jump on someone who is showing the slightest bit of something positive.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Just thinking as well, Baxter can't really develop English forwards as his pack isn't really full of any.

Maybe that's unfair but looking at the teams they've been putting out it seems there is only the odd 2-3 English players in the pack.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Just thinking as well, Baxter can't really develop English forwards as his pack isn't really full of any.

Maybe that's unfair but looking at the teams they've been putting out it seems there is only the odd 2-3 English players in the pack.

Sunday's pack had 5 Englishmen in it.

The Champions Cup winning pack only had 2 non-English players in it.

Baxter has his follies but this is a strange criticism.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Sunday's pack had 5 Englishmen in it.

The Champions Cup winning pack only had 2 non-English players in it.

Baxter has his follies but this is a strange criticism.

It's not meant as a criticism, I love Baxter. Just that people saying Baxter will develop some great English forwards didn't make sense.

Baxter will develop a brilliant set of forwards but wales will get 2 of those, sa gets a couple and we get a couple.

I'd rather he had more English players only because I know he'd do a great job with them. I'm so jealous of wales with Jenkins and Christ there.

 

[Reiser99]

Rugby Football Union announces plans to revitalise the game

English rugby's powerbrokers announce plans to revitalise the game in England after admitting they have "failed miserably" when it comes to developing young talent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not much new other than admitting England have failed to develop young talent. What I don't get is how they think their solutions will help?

• As part of a landmark new partnership, the Rugby Football Union plans to create a revamped second tier from the 2025-2026 season. (At the moment the premiership is still struggling overall in terms of financing and attendances. They aren't awful, but I honestly don't see room for a second tier. Also it seems the championship clubs would have to sign up to a franchise model, so if they don't do they stay in the championship? It seems very messy and not actually designed to help the game, but give the folded clubs a chance to come back.)

• Around 25 elite England players to receive hybrid or "enhanced "contracts, giving the RFU closer control over player workload, with improved Individual Development Plans [IDPs]. (Still waiting to see how this works. Might make a little difference, but I guess it depends on exactly how it works.)

• Slimmed-down Premiership squads of around 35 senior players, supported by a dozen or so Academy players, to prevent clubs 'warehousing' talent. (This seems stupid to me and it's being discussed elsewhere. Yes, youth players might get more chances, but it's going to put a lot more pressure on the senior squad to stay fit. What I really don't get is before Dean Ryan came along, England had an excellent youth setup. Why aren't they trying to replicate that? Also I think the squad of 35 might well be linked to the premiership 2 so that it frees up some players to join those clubs. However, as it's a lower league and players won't have many options, I can't help but feel some might get shafted salary wise.)

• A centralised and standardised strength and conditioning database to allow better collaboration between the clubs and national sides. (Be interested to see how this works and what impacts it might have. However, I'm worried about how much emphasis England and the RFU seem to be putting on strength and conditioning. It might give you an edge, but other basic areas of the game are woefully lacking still.)

• A "consistent and regular" programme of England 'A' matches, including a tour in the summer of 2025. (Tbh the only really good bit if implemented correctly.)

 

[higgik]

Rugby Football Union announces plans to revitalise the game

English rugby's powerbrokers announce plans to revitalise the game in England after admitting they have "failed miserably" when it comes to developing young talent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not much new other than admitting England have failed to develop young talent. What I don't get is how they think their solutions will help?

• As part of a landmark new partnership, the Rugby Football Union plans to create a revamped second tier from the 2025-2026 season. (At the moment the premiership is still struggling overall in terms of financing and attendances. They aren't awful, but I honestly don't see room for a second tier. Also it seems the championship clubs would have to sign up to a franchise model, so if they don't do they stay in the championship? It seems very messy and not actually designed to help the game, but give the folded clubs a chance to come back.)

• Around 25 elite England players to receive hybrid or "enhanced "contracts, giving the RFU closer control over player workload, with improved Individual Development Plans [IDPs]. (Still waiting to see how this works. Might make a little difference, but I guess it depends on exactly how it works.)

• Slimmed-down Premiership squads of around 35 senior players, supported by a dozen or so Academy players, to prevent clubs 'warehousing' talent. (This seems stupid to me and it's being discussed elsewhere. Yes, youth players might get more chances, but it's going to put a lot more pressure on the senior squad to stay fit. What I really don't get is before Dean Ryan came along, England had an excellent youth setup. Why aren't they trying to replicate that? Also I think the squad of 35 might well be linked to the premiership 2 so that it frees up some players to join those clubs. However, as it's a lower league and players won't have many options, I can't help but feel some might get shafted salary wise.)

• A centralised and standardised strength and conditioning database to allow better collaboration between the clubs and national sides. (Be interested to see how this works and what impacts it might have. However, I'm worried about how much emphasis England and the RFU seem to be putting on strength and conditioning. It might give you an edge, but other basic areas of the game are woefully lacking still.)

• A "consistent and regular" programme of England 'A' matches, including a tour in the summer of 2025. (Tbh the only really good bit if implemented correctly.)

A 12 team Prem 2 would give 25 pro teams, that hopefully spread around the country and be successful.
Prem 2 could add in the 4 extra games over the European dates, still leaving time for breaks.
Also would like the idea of a Prem cup with all 24 teams, as a preseason or early season event, maybe as a sort of trial for players to get a contract, like in the NFL.

 

[Reiser99]

A 12 team Prem 2 would give 25 pro teams, that hopefully spread around the country and be successful.
Prem 2 could add in the 4 extra games over the European dates, still leaving time for breaks.
Also would like the idea of a Prem cup with all 24 teams, as a preseason or early season event, maybe as a sort of trial for players to get a contract, like in the NFL.

I just don't see it happening. I don't think there is enough grassroots support in this country at the moment to support 25 pro teams at a top level. We've seen 3 premiership teams go under and the championship regular can't promote because the clubs don't meet the criteria and all of a sudden they want to jump to 25? It's delusional.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It's not meant as a criticism, I love Baxter. Just that people saying Baxter will develop some great English forwards didn't make sense.

Baxter will develop a brilliant set of forwards but wales will get 2 of those, sa gets a couple and we get a couple.

I'd rather he had more English players only because I know he'd do a great job with them. I'm so jealous of wales with Jenkins and Christ there.

My bad, I read it as if you were saying that Baxter has an inability to develop English forwards rather than that he just isn't developing many right now. In that case I agree.

 

[Which Tyler]

A 12 team Prem 2 would give 25 pro teams, that hopefully spread around the country and be successful.
Prem 2 could add in the 4 extra games over the European dates, still leaving time for breaks.
Also would like the idea of a Prem cup with all 24 teams, as a preseason or early season event, maybe as a sort of trial for players to get a contract, like in the NFL.

It's what I've been calling for for decades now - except that IMO the Prem Cup should be played during the international windows (and have a limit on "senior" Premiership players - best I've come up with is minutes played in the previous season, but all such tools are blunt)

 

[Which Tyler]

1. As part of a landmark new partnership, the Rugby Football Union plans to create a revamped second tier from the 2025-2026 season.

2. Around 25 elite England players to receive hybrid or "enhanced "contracts, giving the RFU closer control over player workload, with improved Individual Development Plans [IDPs].

3. Slimmed-down Premiership squads of around 35 senior players, supported by a dozen or so Academy players, to prevent clubs 'warehousing' talent.

4. A centralised and standardised strength and conditioning database to allow better collaboration between the clubs and national sides.

5. A "consistent and regular" programme of England 'A' matches, including a tour in the summer of 2025.

1. Yes, yes, yes please. But do it properly. Not franchises (an excuse to get Wasps and LIrish (I wish I could include Worcester & Jersey here) fast-tracked back up to the top. A 12 or 14 team Prem 2 (extra matches played during Euro weekends) with decent funding, and sponsorship and TV deals wrapped up together with Prem 1, and a reasonable sharing of those moneys - look to France where they already do that for the top 3 tiers. Proper promotion and relegation will be required, no parachute payments, stadium MSCs set for both, at a level that's achievable for all of the clubs (so none of this 10k rubbish - though I believe that's government imposed, not RFU / PRL)

2. We need to see details on how this is going to work, as it's currently a bugger's muddle of leaks and supposition. It could be great, it could be awful.

3. Terrible idea as a stand-alone. I could see some benefit if it's introduced with #1 being done properly... which it won't be (ie. if it's a way to "release" some higher quality players down to a properly funded and exposed Prem2).
Either way, 35 + academy is too small. 35 + 12 "academy new graduates" + full academy should be fine (if putting artificial limits on the academy, it should be limits of "protected from the draft" not a straight limit on the number as "leaked".

4. Hmmm, interesting idea, and better collaboration is always better. Trouble is, club and country demands on a player are very different.

5. An unqualified "Yes please".



Further to #1 IMO, the TV deal should include 3 Prem1 & 1 or 2 Prem2 matches live each week + 1 match a week live on free-to-air TV (preferably alternating between Prem1 and Prem2) or at the very least, and terrestrial TV highlights program for the week's matches across both Premierships. Oh, and PRTV covering both, obviously.
IIRC the financial split in France is 4 : 2 : 1 to Top14 : PRO D2 : Nationale

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I feel 10 is a better number for Prem 2
11 teams currently in it
Even if say the 4 folded clubs come back

I don't see how
Caldy
Hartbury
London Scottish
Cambridge
Ampthill

Are going to survive in a proper all Pro Prem 2 format.

Also a bit worried about having
Worcester
Nottingham
Leicester
Northampton
Coventry
All together but that's whatever.

35 man squads will just mean we are ****** in europe, and I don't see how much quality will drop down to the Prem 2 either.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I feel that 2 fully pro teams of 10 and then a third semi pro league of 10

Is prob high enough in terms of dreaming
Have a FA cup style competition with all 3 teams

 

[Which Tyler]

1. I feel 10 is a better number for Prem 2

2. 35 man squads will just mean we are ****** in europe, and I don't see how much quality will drop down to the Prem 2 either.

1. Currently, yes. But I'd personally rather have other in there (even if those "others" end up being RFU supported and chosen for their location) to build up over the next decade, than set things up as 10+10 now, and essentially lock everyone else out for all eternity.

2. Again, currently yes (and 35 is too small, whenever this is put in place). If put in place alongside a properly funded, and exposed Prem2 with full (automatic, or ideally 1x automatic and 1x play-off) promotion and relegation, then I could see more of them staying in the game.
That's a mighty big "If" though.
Pity they didn't read the recommendation I (helped by an entire forum) made to them in 2006 when Rob Andrew was appointed as RFU Do(E)R - back when PRL hadn't really started waging war on the Championship (Keith Barwell was still around at Saints, so PRL were too busy waging war on the RFU), and the gap was still surmountable, and there was "plenty" of funding sloshing around lower down.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

1. Currently, yes. But I'd personally rather have other in there (even if those "others" end up being RFU supported and chosen for their location) to build up over the next decade, than set things up as 10+10 now, and essentially lock everyone else out for all eternity.

2. Again, currently yes (and 35 is too small, whenever this is put in place). If put in place alongside a properly funded, and exposed Prem2 with full (automatic, or ideally 1x automatic and 1x play-off) promotion and relegation, then I could see more of them staying in the game. That's a mighty big "If" though. Pity they didn't read the recommendation I (helped by an entire forum) made to them in 2006 when Rob Andrew was appointed as RFU Do(E)R - back when PRL hadn't really started waging war on the Championship (Keith Barwell was still around at Saints, so PRL were too busy waging war on the RFU), and the gap was still surmountable, and there was "plenty" of funding sloshing around lower down.

1. I guess my thing is I can't see some of those clubs ever being viable.
Like Hartbury for example.
All it will do is diulte the compeition I feel.

I would rather have a stronger semi pro league than a weaker Prem 2, and if Prem 2 takes off then you can work on trying to build the League 1 (or whatever) into a viable source and have a fully promoted/relegated league system again.

 

[Which Tyler]

Understood.
I would agree that Hartpury is simply too close (geographically and financially) to Gloucester for both to be big clubs. But then, would they want to be part of Prem2? They'd have to have that ambition for themselves.
Maybe I've got too much faith in humans, but I think they'd turn down that offer.

I've also got 20-odd years of wanting this, so A] I may well be a bit stuck in stone by this point, and B] of course, when I came up with the idea, the landscape was very different.

NB: I'm delighted that the idea is being proposed and taken seriously. I'm utterly cynical that it would ever happen in a way that's good for the sport in this country

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[higgik]

It's what I've been calling for for decades now - except that IMO the Prem Cup should be played during the international windows (and have a limit on "senior" Premiership players - best I've come up with is minutes played in the previous season, but all such tools are blunt)

Yes, my idea would be to move the AI to same window as RWC, and include the summer tours in it.
One window at beginning of season, with Prem Cup during this 7 week window.

 

[Reiser99]

NB: I'm delighted that the idea is being proposed and taken seriously. I'm utterly cynical that it would ever happen in a way that's good for the sport in this country

I agree here. I just don't see it happening in a way that works.

 

[Reiser99]

My other question is why aren't they trying to replicate the age grade system that dean ryan destroyed? That was clearly working.