England 2023/24

[TRF_Olyy]

Plenty more top props involved in full squads at 20/21

So the 2025 6N, then?
Fasogbon and Opoku-Fordjour are very young

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I wouldn't be apples to a few stop gap players at the moment like Balmain or the like (if they are good enough). I know they arnt long term but we need some players who are in the middle compared to young pups and old man cole.

 

[BPM]

At 32, Balmain, Schonert and Collier aren't exactly 'in the middle'. We lack any decent tightheads in their mid-late 20s.

Paul Hill is the only regular starter I can think of in that age group and he just hasn't made good on his early promise.

In some positions we have a fairly reliable succession of talent. In others, we really don't. Tighthead is one of several problematic positions.

 

[Which Tyler]

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...

www.therugbyforum.com

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...

www.therugbyforum.com

If this was hard and fast truth then the medical professionals at the clubs would limit the game time of the younger players (which I know they do but not sure on the limitations).

 

[BPM]

Actually come to think of it tighthead has been an issue for a long time. It's just been masked by the fact that we've had Cole +1 other for the last 15 years or so.

We had Brookes (33), Williams (32), Collier (32), Balmain (32) Davison (31) and Francis* (31) who all came through the English club system and were regular starters in the Premiership by their mid-20s, plus Schonert (who was an import).

Where is the next generation backing that up? Paul Hill is the only genuine example. And where is the next one after that? Stuart seems to be the only one. It's only now that we're seeing a crop of promising tightheads come through.

 

[Geordie]

Ehren Painter is probably there BPM at 25, but he was in the wilderness and the move has really turned him round.

The other is probably Joe Hayes (24) but he doesnt seem to be pulling up trees...

 

[Which Tyler]

If this was hard and fast truth then the medical professionals at the clubs would limit the game time of the younger players (which I know they do but not sure on the limitations).

Virtually nothing in medicine is a hard and fast rule.
It's also very clear in that post that it's not a hard and fast rule.

As you say, clubs are already doing this to some degree.

 

[BPM]

Ehren Painter is probably there BPM at 25, but he was in the wilderness and the move has really turned him round.

The other is probably Joe Hayes (24) but he doesnt seem to be pulling up trees...

Yeah, my qualifying criteria was being a regular starter which Painter only just seems to be arriving at. I'm not suggesting the likes of Williams, Collier and Balmain should have had more opportunities with England.

Brookes was probably the biggest disappointment for me. I thought after the 2015 RWC, he'd probably become our starting 3, but he went from looking very promising to deeply average. Similar for Hill I guess.

 

[Geordie]

Yeah, my qualifying criteria was being a regular starter which Painter only just seems to be arriving at. I'm not suggesting the likes of Williams, Collier and Balmain should have had more opportunities with England.

Brookes was probably the biggest disappointment for me. I thought after the 2015 RWC, he'd probably become our starting 3, but he went from looking very promising to deeply average. Similar for Hill I guess.

Ah Brookes...where do i start with him. Hes not very popular up here. Lazy, unmotivated, awful dietary ideas...and no loyalty...think that covers it.
There was a VERY good prop in there...who we twice rehabed up to being one of the best in the league...and twice he dropped us like a sack of S**t....

 

[BPM]

I can't disagree with any of that - hence why I described him as 'the biggest disappointment'. If he'd built on his early promise, he'd have had 4x the number of caps he accumalted.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Actually come to think of it tighthead has been an issue for a long time. It's just been masked by the fact that we've had Cole +1 other for the last 15 years or so.

We had Brookes (33), Williams (32), Collier (32), Balmain (32) Davison (31) and Francis* (31) who all came through the English club system and were regular starters in the Premiership by their mid-20s, plus Schonert (who was an import).

Where is the next generation backing that up? Paul Hill is the only genuine example. And where is the next one after that? Stuart seems to be the only one. It's only now that we're seeing a crop of promising tightheads come through.

From time to time we hear that THs are some of the most crucial / best paid players.

Against that backdrop has it been the case that the clubs have dived straight in on oven ready talent more than most other positions?

Say what you like about Sarries but they've always been pretty good at developing English talent.

In their 3 Champions Cup final wins they fielded:

2016: 10 English starters + 5 subs

2017: 11+ 2

2019: 11 + 5

No English TH saw a second of game time in those 3 big matches - six separate shirts up for grabs taken by couple of Saffers, an American and an Argentinian. All the other positions (bar 11) had at least one English starter with the likes of Barrington and Gray also taking sub roles for the other front row positions behind Mako and George.

Small sample, granted, but it feels like some chicken and egg. Are the English not good enough or being denied opportunities?

 

[BPM]

A bit of both … in Saracens' specific case, they had a couple of England U20 tightheads that didn't make the grade in Biyi Alo and Billy Walker, so they were at least trying to bring through some youngsters. More recently, they've had English players like Clarey and Judge as back ups too.

Part of the issue might be a lack of clarity on what we expect from our props. Over the past while, I think we've prioritised all round skills over the core responsibilities at the set piece. Perhaps some of those that weren't regarded as skilful enough might have made more of an impact if we'd focused on scums ahead of ability in the loose. Before he left for France, Alo had become pretty good, but as he wasn't a barnstorming, offloading type of prop, he was never likely to be in the conversation. Similar for Collier.

 

[Geordie]

A bit of both … in Saracens' specific case, they had a couple of England U20 tightheads that didn't make the grade in Biyi Alo and Billy Walker, so they were at least trying to bring through some youngsters. More recently, they've had English players like Clarey and Judge as back ups too.

Part of the issue might be a lack of clarity on what we expect from our props. Over the past while, I think we've prioritised all round skills over the core responsibilities at the set piece. Perhaps some of those that weren't regarded as skilful enough might have made more of an impact if we'd focused on scums ahead of ability in the loose. Before he left for France, Alo had become pretty good, but as he wasn't a barnstorming, offloading type of prop, he was never likely to be in the conversation. Similar for Collier.

I think thats huge actually.
Painter is a great example. Saints "apparently" wanted props who do more...and the player looks pretty irrelevant...goes to a side who values scrummaging first and the close in stuff above all else for props...and suddenly hes a player that people are talking about England recognition.

 

[Which Tyler]

I think thats huge actually.

Yup, not just in itself, but also because it takes way longer to develop, so props who are merely adequate around the park, but become really good at the set piece, may never get the chance, because they haven't yet by the age of 22 (or so).

I for one, am really please that this is being addressed on the national level - though we're 5 years from seeing the benefits.

 

[Geordie]

Sb is an old school fan..ie back to basics...props doing prop things. And i wonder how much Baxters words are echoing around the prem aswell....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sb is an old school fan..ie back to basics...props doing prop things

Eehhhh, I'd give it a little while before naming him the saviour of English rugby - Painter is literally the first old school prop he's pushed, look at the state of Harry Williams etc. that he was such a big fan of before

I also question whether Painter's turnaround is solely because of Baxter
He was released by Saints after getting done for drink driving - I wouldn't be surprised if that was his big wake up call to start taking things more seriously

Probably a combination of the two

 

[Geordie]

Eehhhh, I'd give it a little while before naming him the saviour of English rugby - Painter is literally the first old school prop he's pushed, look at the state of Harry Williams etc. that he was such a big fan of before

I also question whether Painter's turnaround is solely because of Baxter
He was released by Saints after getting done for drink driving - I wouldn't be surprised if that was his big wake up call to start taking things more seriously

Probably a combination of the two

Erm....when did i say hes the saviour of English rugby?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not you specifically but seen a number of people waxing lyrical about him, and how he'll turn England's forwards around, when in reality all he's done is start Painter, who was already closing in on 100 Prem appearances so not exactly plucked from nowhere

 

[BPM]

Eehhhh, I'd give it a little while before naming him the saviour of English rugby - Painter is literally the first old school prop he's pushed, look at the state of Harry Williams etc. that he was such a big fan of before

I also question whether Painter's turnaround is solely because of Baxter
He was released by Saints after getting done for drink driving - I wouldn't be surprised if that was his big wake up call to start taking things more seriously

Probably a combination of the two

I didn't know that was why he was released. You're probably right.