• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

All Blacks vs Wallabies, August 7th 2010, Fifth Tri Nations Test

i think kaplan is a more competent ref than joubert but based on his past games, the winner will be the team least penalised in the first 10 minutes. ie. if australia give away some penalties early on, kaplan will continue to penalise them for the remaining 70 minutes, and new zealand will be allowed to get away with the same indiscretions, or vice versa. call me an idiot
 
i think kaplan is a more competent ref than joubert but based on his past games, the winner will be the team least penalised in the first 10 minutes. ie. if australia give away some penalties early on, kaplan will continue to penalise them for the remaining 70 minutes, and new zealand will be allowed to get away with the same indiscretions or vice versa.

You been listing to that idiot Bob Dwyer again, haven't you?
68.gif


call me an idiot
OK, you're an idiot.... happy?
buttkick.gif


Actually, I think the reverse is true. I think Joubert is a more competent referee that Kaplan. Having him as referee for Christchurch worries me a bit. Kaplan's scrum management is nowhere up to that of Rolland, Mark Lawrence or Joubert. Kaplan has a tendency to protect the weaker scrum, and not allow the dominant scrum to dominate.

This is unlike Dickinson, who just guesses when he has no idea what is going on, which is most of the time!
 
At least the Aussies are clever enough to get someone other than the coach to try the influence via the media thingy.

Super Sewer Herald said:
Dwyer fires salvoes at All Blacks, Deans
2:40 PM Wednesday Aug 4, 2010

Former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer believes the All Blacks are getting away with murder at the breakdown.

Dwyer says the All Blacks are making an art of cheating, by putting players in offside position with or without possession.

He says he doesn't expect the referees to take any action as long as Kiwi Paddy O'Brien's in charge of the IRB whistle blowers.

He says the All Blacks have come up with some strategies that the referees are struggling to deal with but he doesn't expect O'Brien to make any decisions.

Dwyer also believes it's not too late for the Wallabies to replace embattled coach Robbie Deans for the World Cup. He says something's going badly wrong, and you can't sack an entire squad of players.
 
Hey redeye... spot Dwyer's obvious mistake

Dwyer fires salvoes at All Blacks, Deans
2:40 PM Wednesday Aug 4, 2010

Former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer believes the All Blacks are getting away with murder at the breakdown.

Dwyer says the All Blacks are making an art of cheating, by putting players in offside position with or without possession.
Also, its quite funny that Graham Henry is saying exactly the same thing....

from tvnz.co.nz

Henry voiced his concern that referees are missing one element of the game which was detracting from an otherwise-bright spectacle this year. He said defensive players were increasingly getting in front of the hindmost feet at rucks, often making life difficult for halfbacks or slowing momentum. "If you keep people back, you'd get an ever better game," he said.


Every All Blacks supporter from the mid 1980's knows that teams coached by Dwyer made an art form of being offside in the midfield.
 
Last edited:
not really the all black chasers are usually in front of the kickers
actually i just noticed that carter was unintentionally offside for his try, mind you it all happened pretty fast i can accept it being missed
 
I think this is what Dwyer is making a reference to. Don't get to excited Cooky it is not a Saffa making this video, listen to the commentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdr-W775hk4


Anyway, just to make it clear I think the All Blacks are playing some really good rugby at the moment and are definatley setting the benchmark this year.
 
Whew. That video is going to hit a couple of nerves. In b4 Cooky goes mental!

EDIT: Seriously though, the guy is accurate with everything that he says. At least now i know where the cheating accusations come from. How good are the AB's at those tactics though! They have mastered it. Regardless though, they are still the best in the world.
 
Last edited:
quite funny actually, but i think if you broke down every teams breakdown technique it would be similar in infringements and tactics
 
I think this is what Dwyer is making a reference to. Don't get to excited Cooky it is not a Saffa making this video, listen to the commentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdr-W775hk4

Anyway, just to make it clear I think the All Blacks are playing some really good rugby at the moment and are definatley setting the benchmark this year.

Raises some good points, but in reality, the All Blacks are not doing things any differently to the way the Springboks and Wallabies are doing them, its just that the compiler of the video has cherry-picked the sequences he wants to show to back up his point. If I could be bothered wasting my time trawling through hours of video and micro-analysing it, I know I would find plenty to back almost any point I want to make.

What is clear, however, is that the compiler/narrator of this video has virtually no knowledge of the Laws of the Game, and little if any understanding of the concept of "materiality". Rugby Union is such a complicated game, that without referees applying materiality constraints, instead of whistling every offence, the game would be nigh on impossible to play.

I will now set about destroying his arguments and pointing out:

► where he makes incorrect assumptions about the Laws
► where his understanding of the concept of materiality is poor.

At 1:15:
Read doesn't launch himself over the ball, he binds correctly and drives Habana away from the tackle area. This is a legitimate part of the game, and you see players from both teams doing exactly that at virtually every tackle/ruck situation.

Law 16.2 JOINING A RUCK
(b) A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The
bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body
of the player joining the ruck.

The player standing in an offside position is actually not taking part on the game, so he doesn't necessarily have to be penalised.

Law 11 definitions:
At the start of a game all players are onside. As the match progresses players may find themselves in an offside position. Such players are then liable to be penalised until they become onside again.


"Liable to be penalised" means that he "can" be penalised, not that he "must" be penalised. This is the concept I referred to earlier as "materiality", the one which the narrator doesn't understand. A player who is not affecting play is "not having a material effect on play" therefore, most referees will not penalise, they will manage such situations. Talk to any qualified referee, and they will tell you the same thing.

At 1:43:
Owen Franks was entitled to to do what he did because NO tackle had yet been made; McCaw had not been taken to ground...

Law 15 Definitions
A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.


Nor had any ruck/or maul formed.

Law 16 Definitions:
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.


Law 17 Definitions:
A maul begins when a player carrying the ball is held by one or more opponents, and one or more of the ball carrier's team mates bind on the ball carrier. A maul therefore consists, when it begins, of at least three players, all on their feet; the ball carrier and one player from each team. All the players involved must be caught in or bound to the maul and must be on their feet and moving towards a
goal line. Open play has ended.


Therefore, its General Play, and players can join from any direction.

At 2:16:
Again Owen Franks is perfectly entitled to do what he did. There is no ruck formed (no Springbok players are on their feet in contact with All Black players over the ball), therefore there is no offside. It was a tackle, but there is no offside at the tackle either, and Franks made no attempt to join from there so he cannot be penalised for not entering the tackle through the gate.Same again and 2:21 and 2:41; nothing formed (i.e. no ruck) so no offside. The narrator seems to be bent on continuing to use the term "offside" in situations where there is none.This practice is no different from players running past the catcher at a kick-off to try to intercept the back pass.

At 3:30:
Conrad Smith is perfectly entitled to take out Kirchner. This is called "cleaning out". This practice is enabled by the following Law

Law 15.7 (d) Players on their feet must not charge or obstruct an opponent who is not near the ball.

Conversely then, if a player IS near the ball, then the opposition ARE entitled to obstruct him. "Cleaning out" is a basic fundamental of the modern game. The only thing I would say is that he could have been pinged for entering at the side.

At 3:53
Same as for 2:16 above. There are NO Springboks on their feet in physical contact with All Blacks, therefore there is no ruck, therefore there is no hindmost foot offside line, therefore there is no offside. What I see here is a bunch of All Black forwards taking advantage of the fact that the Springbok players are;
a: too slow to the breakdown.
b: not committing players on their feet to the breakdown even when the do eventually get there.

It has become pretty clear to me by now that the narrator does not have the foggiest idea what a ruck is, and how the offside lines do not appear until such time as one is formed. Remember Mr Narrator, and burn this into your brain... there is no offside at the tackle, only a requirement for players ARRIVING a the tackle to enter through the gate.

And that mantra pretty much applies to the rest of the video. Mr Narrator even wants to complain when the All Blacks ARE penalised for illegalities.

In summary, the Narrator of this video;

1. Has a poor knowledge of the Laws of the Game.
2. Does not clearly understand the application of the Laws.
3. Does not understand the concept of "materiality".
4. Does not understand what constitutes a "ruck" or how it is formed.
5. Continually uses the term "offside" when there is no offside in Law at the phase he is referring to.

This is a clever piece of editing where all the video that supports his premise is left in, and all the video that would show the Springboks doing the same things is left out. You see very few occasions where the Springboks take the ball into contact and get numbers to the breakdown, and even then, the sequences are not allowed to run so that you can see what the Springboks do. I wonder why that is?

But the most damning indictment of this video, is the sequence that runs from 0:00 to 0:04.
 
Last edited:
I have posted a "link" to this thread in the youtube video comments.

Hopefully, if the narrator is prepared to stand up to some scrutiny for what he is saying, he will not delete it.
 
thanks for calling me an idiot smartcooky :p

i think most of the posts in this thread highlight that the speed of today's game makes it difficult, if not impossible for refs and fans to process all the rules/laws of the game in real time. it's easy for us to watch and rewatach footage and quote half a page of laws analysing this footage without the pressure of having to make a split second decision in a match situation.

i think there's only 1 more thing to add to this discussion... McCaw is a cheat! :D
 
thanks for calling me an idiot smartcooky :p

Well you did ask, literally!!

i think most of the posts in this thread highlight that the speed of today's game makes it difficult, if not impossible for refs and fans to process all the rules/laws of the game in real time. it's easy for us to watch and rewatch footage and quote half a page of laws analysing this footage without the pressure of having to make a split second decision in a match situation.

i think there's only 1 more thing to add to this discussion... McCaw is a cheat! :D
Oh hell mate! And you we're to doing so well until the last line!!!!

Seriously, though, you have hit the nail on the head there regarding the speed of the game. This is what a lot of people (like the narrator of the video) fail to understand.

► The referee gets one look, at full speed, from one angle, at ground level, and the has to make a decision based on that.
► Us armchair critics get as many looks as we like, at any speed that we like from a selection of angles, some of which are elevated.

Its the Catch-22 scenario (or the Kobayashi Maru scenario if you are a Star Trek fan), the no-win situation. Referees are going to make mistakes, not see stuff, see more than one thing and have to decide what to penalise, and then cop a barrage of criticism for not doing what the armchair critic thought he should have.

As a rule I no longer bother spending time editing and assembling videos. Also, I don't bother analysing them UNLESS I see someone like the narrator, putting an obviously biased/slanted piece of selective editing together like this, and then still analysing it incorrectly because their knowledge of the Laws and their application is fundamentally flawed.

What I enjoy doing much more is to let them do all the tedious work of compiling and analysing their video, then tearing their analysis to shreds using my years of experience as a referee and my knowledge of the Laws of the Game to do so.
 
Wallabies team announced:

15. Kurtley Beale (NSW Waratahs)
14. James O'Connor (Western Force)
13. Adam Ashley-Cooper (Brumbies)
12. Anthony Faingaa (Queensland Reds)
11. Drew Mitchell (NSW Waratahs)
10. Matt Giteau (Brumbies)
9. Will Genia (Queensland Reds)
8. Richard Brown (Western Force)
7. David Pocock (Western Force)
6. Rocky Elsom (Brumbies, captain)
5. Nathan Sharpe (Western Force)
4. Dean Mumm (NSW Waratahs)
3. Salesi Ma'afu (Brumbies)
2. Saia Faingaa (Queensland Reds)
1. Benn Robinson (NSW Waratahs)

Substitutions:
16. Stephen Moore (Brumbies)
17. James Slipper (Queensland Reds)
18. Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds)
19. Matt Hodgson (Western Force)
20. Luke Burgess (NSW Waratahs)
21. Berrick Barnes (NSW Waratahs)
22. Cameron Shepherd (Western Force)
 
I think this is what Dwyer is making a reference to. Don't get to excited Cooky it is not a Saffa making this video, listen to the commentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdr-W775hk4


Anyway, just to make it clear I think the All Blacks are playing some really good rugby at the moment and are definatley setting the benchmark this year.


Wow! thats so blatant its hard to imagine why i didn't see it before. the all blacks literally walk around the ruck and lie down on the other side! I'm not sure if they are doing anyting wrong though. i mean if a player came through the gate and blasted through the ruck and fell over it would look very similar so its hard to penalise against it even if it is technically illegal...
 
Last edited:
Barnes and Moore got dropped! Interesting selections, especially seeing as though Barnes was the vice-captain last year and now he can't even make the 15 when Coopers suspended. I ******* hate it when they play AAC as a centre though. I can't ever remember him having a good game at centre and they obviously don't intend to leave him there long term. Why not bring in a specialist like Will Chambers. I know he is green but Deans can't seriously be planning on going in to the world cup next year with only one outside centre, especially when hes injured every second week...
 
Cooky

Great breakdown of a **** video. I see you haven't lost any of your form since the irb forums closed.

The guy is talkin thru a hole in his arse.

ICU been givin him some stick on his yootoob post too. He'll prolly delete it and block u though. Pricks like him can dish it out but they cant take it.
 
Barnes and Moore got dropped! Interesting selections, especially seeing as though Barnes was the vice-captain last year and now he can't even make the 15 when Coopers suspended. I ******* hate it when they play AAC as a centre though. I can't ever remember him having a good game at centre and they obviously don't intend to leave him there long term. Why not bring in a specialist like Will Chambers. I know he is green but Deans can't seriously be planning on going in to the world cup next year with only one outside centre, especially when hes injured every second week...

Chambers is injured (I think he's recently undergone shoulder surgery). I'm sure if he was fully fit he would be in the squad at the moment
 
Top