[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 6: South Africa v New Zealand (07/10/2017)

[smartcooky]

I watched the match again and one thing stood out to me again so I snapped some pics. Now it's not to say these all of these had a major influence however the one did, where Squire focused an error for NZ's first penalty. Every kick off NZ players were in front of the kicker. The second one is marginal but still in front IMO. However the third and last time are the worst. Clearly offside and should have resulted in a penalty kick which could have change the outcome of the match.

This is probably something that needs to be addressed by the refs more consciously much like screw scrum feeds were being picked up again a season or two ago. NZ are frequently using the middle kick-off these days and I think pushing the boundaries here is favouring them unfairly.

EDIT: Smartcooky, what's your take on these pics?

Firstly, as @themole25 points out, in front of the kicker at restarts and drop outs is not a penalty kick,

LAW 13.3 POSITION OF THE KICKER'S TEAM AT A KICK-OFF (OR RESTART)
All the kicker's team must be behind the ball when it is kicked. If they are not, a scrum is
formed at the centre. Their opponents throw in the ball.

LAW 13.16 THE KICKER'S TEAM (AT A 22M DROPOUT)
(a) All the kicker's team must be behind the ball when it is kicked. If not, a scrum is formed at
the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.

Secondly, all teams do this. Try snapping some of the Springbok restarts. The Wallabies have a running start policy and they get it wrong a fair bit of the time. The Lions earlier this year are among the worst I've seen recently. There were times when players were 2-3 metres in front of the kicker.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Wow, what a test.
I was away with the family in Cornwall doing things with our friends down that way and missed the game and the post match banter.
Coming back to it cold and watching the game a few things struck me.
1) Desire. The Boks had their desire back all the way to the bank. If you want to beat the All Blacks, you can, but there are aspects you need to have in place from the get go and the first is the hunger, the desire to get passed the opposition and take possession and keep it and use it.
2) Execution. So much better and stronger on so many fronts than the black wash of the first leg. I thought the Bok hooker had a massive game.
3) Discipline. Mr De Allende had a 'Sonny Bill' moment and it proved very costly. The red card was harsh but he did himself and his team no favours in that moment of foolishness. Just don't do it. He had plenty of time to pull out and stay in the game with no penalty awarded.
4) Belief. As the clock wound down the Boks looked like they were gaining in belief and they would still be out there playing now if they had the opportunity.

It was a lot like an old school rugby test match between these two powerhouse nations and it's great to see the Boks come roaring back to give confidence to their supporters.

For the AB's it looked to me like the road trip had made them a little jaded. No excuses, everybody has to endure a hellish itinerary in the RC. The travel does take it's toll, perhaps a blessing for the AB's they were not up in the high veldt on this occasion, it may have proved to be a bridge too far.
Complacency? Urgency? Desire? We shouldn't need elements to motivate us to our best performance, wearing the hallowed jersey of great worship is enough however, this was a dead rubber and the AB's are only human. It can take just a little of the edge off and I'm not convinced that some of our forwards were firing at full strength.
There is no excuse for that but for my money I thoiught the Boks looked more lively and had a spring in their step.
Were we missing the Retallick hard man factor?
Hard to say but some AB's would have done some growing up in that game because the forwards in particular were put through the ringer.

Well played to the Bokke Boys, they showed the kind of passion they need to bring to every game and their return to regular top form would seem to be around the corner.

 

[galumay]

those are only clear and obvious in slow motion and freeze frames... i

Beg to differ there, as I said earlier, I noticed it in real time. The ref missed it, but on another day they would have been pinged for it - and no doubt adjusted next time, because they got away with it they kept pushing the envelope. I do agree there are worse rule breaches in terms of impact, but it still should be pulled up.

 

[Icemn]

Did anyone notice the AB doing the 'Ka Mate' instead of the 'Kapa-o-Pango'... are they implying that the Boks are not 'worthy' of the challenge anymore? Crowd was too busy boo-ing to notice...

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Ridiculous comparison. Blacks score on an intercept and kick return. Nothing to do with ether bok #10.

The comparison was made to show that whilst evidence could be produced to show the Boks did better with Elton on the field than with Pollard I could see little that showed Pollard "clearly" was better than Elton on the day. It was not to say that Elton was better because of A, B & C but to refute the contention that he was "clearly" inferior.

Elton made errors, as did all his teammates. Pollards first touch was almost to run into contact and get turned over. He then went off with an injury (something that sadly is not rare for him). He had an excellent impact in that try (I was the first to applaud him for that) but anyone who thinks the selection of fly half for the Boks is a no-brainer has a very different perspective to me.

 

[Ospervat]

Secondly, all teams do this. Try snapping some of the Springbok restarts.

 

[smartcooky]

The law says behind the ball when it is kicked, not behind the half way line.

Keeping that in mind, the first one is in front, second one isn't.

Also, did you notice that when you were trawling through the game video looking for the South African kick-offs and restarts, that, we never seemed to get a wide view across the whole field. Also, those were the only two you could get. All of the remaining four SA kick-offs & restarts were not seen because they either had the overhead view from a drone (too far away to see), or they were showing a replay or they were not using the half way camera.

Hmmm.... Now I wonder why that was?

 

[The Jones Boy]

Cooky, let it go man...

 

[mania]

Did anyone notice the AB doing the 'Ka Mate' instead of the 'Kapa-o-Pango'... are they implying that the Boks are not 'worthy' of the challenge anymore? Crowd was too busy boo-ing to notice...

Since when has kamate ever been disrespectful? R u implying ABs don't think boks r worthy? Wow.
I disagree with every fibre of my being. ABs will always respect our most honoured of enemies. Boks make test rugby worth playing

 

[Ospervat]

The law says behind the ball when it is kicked, not behind the half way line.

Keeping that in mind, the first one is in front, second one isn't.

Also, did you notice that when you were trawling through the game video looking for the South African kick-offs and restarts, that, we never seemed to get a wide view across the whole field. Also, those were the only two you could get. All of the remaining four SA kick-offs & restarts were not seen because they either had the overhead view from a drone (too far away to see), or they were showing a replay or they were not using the half way camera.

Hmmm.... Now I wonder why that was?

Wonder no longer:-
Cynicism masquerades as wisdom.

 

[Spuds100]

Did anyone notice the AB doing the 'Ka Mate' instead of the 'Kapa-o-Pango'... are they implying that the Boks are not 'worthy' of the challenge anymore? Crowd was too busy boo-ing to notice...

Yes, I did notice this. Must be because of the 57-0 game.

 

[smartcooky]

Did anyone notice the AB doing the 'Ka Mate' instead of the 'Kapa-o-Pango'... are they implying that the Boks are not 'worthy' of the challenge anymore? Crowd was too busy boo-ing to notice...

Yes, I did notice this. Must be because of the 57-0 game.

You two really make me want to cringe. Has it ever occurred to either of you two geniuses that these are the sorts of comments are exactly the type of bullsh1t which makes people, particularly foreign people, critical of Haka?.

Whether or not they use Kapa O Pango has absolutely ZERO to do with any respect for any opposition. Kapa O Pango is often (but not exclusively so), brought out for special or significant matches such as

2011 RWC Pool match against France (after what happened in to2007)
2011 RWC Final
2012 for the first match welcoming Argentina after their addition to the Rugby Championship
2013 v South Africa at Jo'burg - the RC decider
2015 both RWC playoff matches plus the Final
2016 v Australia at Eden park, the match to create a new longest winning streak record.
2016 v Ireland in Chicago
2017 First and last Lions matches
2017 v South Africa at Albany, to that point, SA had been undefeated in 2017

Your crass and arrogant, self-serving posts contribute nothing except stoking the fire. FFS think before you post.

 

[Spuds100]

Nothing crass about it. I do believe Icemn was correct.

 

[mania]

Nothing crass about it. I do believe Icemn was correct.

So u do believe ABs showed disrespect to the boks? That's stupid. So every time Ka mate has been performed it's been a diss? Dumb. Haka is about respect challenge and welcome and thank you for competing.
Your comments are the complete opposite with a dash of ignorance.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The way the players interacted after the final whistle showed clearly these teams respect each other.
It's a hallmark of these two countries that they know they will lay it on the line when the game starts until it finishes, and then there will be friendship and a barby or a brai.

 

[AM_Bokke]

The way the players interacted after the final whistle showed clearly these teams respect each other.
It's a hallmark of these two countries that they know they will lay it on the line when the game starts until it finishes, and then there will be friendship and a barby or a brai.

100% correct.

BB ran up to give Jantjies a huge hug. he was very happy to see him.

 

[Spuds100]

So u do believe ABs showed disrespect to the boks? That's stupid. So every time Ka mate has been performed it's been a diss? Dumb. Haka is about respect challenge and welcome and thank you for competing.
Your comments are the complete opposite with a dash of ignorance.

No. But I do believe a team that lost 57-0 isn't worth respecting and that you're as good as your last game. Right now, the ABs would definitely do Kapa-o-Panga. Don't take it personally, geez.

 

[Red Enigma]

Just a passing thought regarding choice of haka. Maybe the "Leader" influences the decision. Perenara usually leads the haka and seems very proficient at all varieties, whereas my somewhat pathetic memory suggests Aaron Smith mainly leads the less demanding more traditional hakas and only when the former is absent. I'm sure someone from Maoridom could proffer an opinion on this. To me, a white guy taught the haka 60 years ago at Wellington College, the haka is extremely symbolic for all kiwis, representing our readiness to take on challenges and our commitment to winning. The Anglo-Saxon equivalent is to mutter to yourself "I'm a man not a mouse!"

I recall in an annual home game between us and Christ's college (Christchurch), we unleashed a 600 strong haka half-way through the game to spur our team on. After that wild effort there was a period of calm before one of our wingers took off down the field at a great rate of knots. One of the visitors supporters leapt to his feet, waved his boater wildly and screamed out "Grass the bounder!!" We all fell about the place ******* with laughter, spending the rest of the game yelling out our own equivalents, such as "Rip his b***s off - if he has any!" ; "Give the bounder some grass, he's asleep anyway!". As I recall, we lost, but won the war of words on the bank! Love to see a haka at Wellington college nowadays. With over 2000 students and large numbers of Maoris and other Polynesians, it must be a sight to behold.

 

[smartcooky]

No. But I do believe a team that lost 57-0 isn't worth respecting and that you're as good as your last game. Right now, the ABs would definitely do Kapa-o-Panga. Don't take it personally, geez.

That might be true IF Kapa O Pango was about specially respecting the opposition (over and above Ka Mate), but it isn't and it never has been, and which I have explained to you in some considerable detail.

If you knew anything at all about Haka (which you clearly do not), then you would know that this is not what the All Blacks had in mind when they decided to have Derek Lardelli write a special Haka that would be unique to them. You call yourself a All Black supporter, and yet you show complete disregard and disrespect for the All Blacks by making up your own spurious bullshit in place of the actual truth.

 

[smartcooky]

Just a passing thought regarding choice of haka. Maybe the "Leader" influences the decision. Perenara usually leads the haka and seems very proficient at all varieties, whereas my somewhat pathetic memory suggests Aaron Smith mainly leads the less demanding more traditional hakas and only when the former is absent. .

Since the introduction of Kapa O Pango

Aaron Smith has led it 3 times, and Ka Mate 4 times
TJ Perenara has led it 6 times, and Ka Mate 8 times

No real difference there : both have led KoP three 3 of 7 times