[2024 TRC] New Zealand vs Argentina - 10/08/24

[Leonormous Boozer]

What a result for Felipe, delighted for him.

Well done Pumas.

 

[miccloarch]

My two cents. Not sure i agree. The problem with NZ lately (world cup or now) is consistency and your 'lows'. You mentioned Ireland. NZ performing at their best today/at the world cup are/were better than Ireland imo.
Thing is that Ireland is better on an average day (as in not your best day). You both had a good game game against each other (WC).

The 'magical' thing the All Blacks brought to the table, i mean historically, was that you rarely had a bad game. Your lows were high enough to beat everyone but 1-2 teams. Your highs are not the problem, you still have that in you.

Agree generally.

From our perspective, watching their highs and lows over many World Cup cycles, it's mostly psychological. If our psychology is good we'll almost always win regardless of the opposition. Our problem being at World Cups we tend to choke.

My point about Ireland was that 2023 was unique. We've never gone into a World Cup QF as such underdogs before and that helped us play our best game possible (for a team coached by Fozzie) without feeling the usual pressure of expectation. Ireland didn't play their best game from what I remember.

Our level has clearly dropped though as you mention. Our lows are much lower than before. And that All Black "aura" that English pundits were talking about is gone as well. Teams just don't fear us as much as before.

 

[OllyM97]

What a result for Felipe, delighted for him.

Well done Pumas.

I don't think it will happen because I expect a bounce-back from the ABs, but as a neutral, Argentina being the team to end the Eden Park streak would be something special.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Argentina just wanted it more, i think the AB's had some woeful play (captain block the half back at the ruck...making a socking pass to no one....Dmac clears up....and then throws a shocking pass to noone....loosing 50m and ending up in our own goal....that 3rd grade club rugby stuff)...but the Argentinans came out with more passion, more speed and more determination and deserved it

Razor made a comment along the lines of "the didnt do what we coached them to do"....and im wondering if he has a huge point, I always wondering way fozzie wasn't reviewing and fixing issues that came up in previous games....maybe he was...and then come game time they just did what they wanted

Have we got too many big personalities? too many guys that think they know better? too many not smart enough to remember what has been coached? too many that play on vibe? too many that think they'll never get dropped so dont care?

 

[Larksea]

I want to know where all the Foster haters are? having to deal with them complaining for years about foster and how great Razor is.
This loss is worse than any of those losses under Foster, 38 points is the most NZ has conceded in NZ ever? I can already see one person still blaming Foster which is Hilarious.

You can't say Razor inherited a bad team, if not for a red card and some really unlucky/inaccurate refereeing calls they would have won a WC. Despite not winning the WC the AB's played great rugby last year.

Amazing result for Argentina, you could see as soon as the game started Argentina were playing like it was a final and really wanted it and the AB's were going through the motions. Despite that the AB's seemed to have the game under control until that slap back from Reece gifted a soft try. Then the 2nd half the AB's forwards lost parity the lineouts and Scrums were ugly, they started to concede turnovers at the breakdown and that was where the game was lost.

The bad:
I don't think Savea worked as captain, sure as a player he gave it all, but the team needed direction and don't feel like he did what was needed. it's not enough to lead by example he needs to gather, lift and focus the team and I didn't see him or anyone do that.
ball security has been an issue in all tests this year IMO. hate on Sam Cane all you want but he would visit more rucks than anyone else and secure ball which was always a thankless job. Dalton and Savea are not that type of player. Sam whitelock was another player who was a master there.
obviously, locks are a problem right now, lost Brodie and Sam, plus Scott & Patrick are injured and Josh Lord is only just making a comeback. despite that I thought they did ok as individuals it was more the forward effort, they were a part of that lacked.
Aumua - we all know what impact he can make but if he can't throw then he shouldn't be playing. Those last lineouts that were a shambles had a huge impact.
The 2 big mistakes. Reece seems to be struggling to get into games, he's been busy without making much impact. He really did overdo that slap back, but it was still unlucky. Just need to be smarter and have more patient. I'm not sure about that DMac pass, he seems to be getting the blame but the pass looked ok it just seemed to go right between the Barrett's and maybe they both thought the other was going to take it.
I'm not sold on the structure of the attack it seemed like we operated with quite short passing from 9 and again struggled to get wide but I think generally the attack was OK we just seemed to struggle securing the ball with the forwards. Again, if we are going to operate with a close in attack like that, we need people doing that Sam Cane job and be on hand to secure the ball when needed, Too many turnovers.

The Good
I think DMac is showing that when we can deliver him some good ball he will get the attack going. we really just didn't get enough of it.
ALB was the pick of the backs and Darry played well in the first half in particular. I thought Codie Taylor had a better game after being fairly quiet against England. Savea carried well and won some big turnovers. Talea was sharp.

Argentina were ruthless, could see in their intensity and some of the tactics they used that they really targeted this game.

Interesting Times, the Razor Honeymoon is basically over. We expect an AB team to build well over 5-6 weeks they have had. Razor is inexperienced in building a test team in this way, the forwards haven't turned in anything close to what would be considered a good performance. Either/or/both the lineout and scrum have been problematic and now the breakdown gets exploited. The team is 6+ weeks together now and in some ways its back to the drawing board?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

im not biting....but i'll put my hand up as a fozzie critic and also believed razor would fix things,the first signs of being proven wrong are now out there

personally i feel the first loss and first loss at home to Argentina are "worse", maybe not in score but being the first is a big deal

the real test is what happens now, if he doesn't manage to implement change then the axe needs to fall on some players if theyre not doing what the coaches are coaching

all i will say is it will be harsh if he gets less than the four years fozzie got

side point....how bad was the crowd in wellington.....i heard there were still 10k tickets avalilable for walk ups, some will have gone but there were lots of yellow seats, chch or hamilton would have killed for games and Dunedin managed to sell out 30k

 

[Alex Anghel]

I only saw the first half and thought Reece mistake just put Argentina back into the game.

I am a bit surprised to see so many people doubting Razor already, at least judging by the comments I read in Stuff'articles…the guy is a serial winner at the Super Rugby level and won ***les when the SA teams were playing in the competition as well…likewise, people tend to forget he lost massive test experience as Coles, Whitelock, Retallick, Smith retired and Mo'unga is playing overseas, while Barrett and Toipulotu were unavailable…

However, the only thing that really surprised me in Razor selections was that he seems to continue the wrong path Steve Hansen and Ian Foster started to walk post 2017, namely to play people out of position, which is very strange …Ardie should be playing at 7, Telea is not an 11, but a 14, etc.

 

[miccloarch]

I am a bit surprised to see so many people doubting Razor already, at least judging by the comments I read in Stuff'articles…the guy is a serial winner at the Super Rugby level and won ***les when the SA teams were playing in the competition as well…likewise, people tend to forget he lost massive test experience as Coles, Whitelock, Retallick, Smith retired and Mo'unga is playing overseas, while Barrett and Toipulotu were unavailable…

NZ media knows exactly how to push people's buttons so it creates a general sense of delusion among AB fans, whether we're winning or losing.

When we lose, it's a national tragedy, so the overreactions are always going to come out.

 

[miccloarch]

I want to know where all the Foster haters are?

Never hated him but I'm right here buddy.

having to deal with them complaining for years about foster and how great Razor is.
This loss is worse than any of those losses under Foster

This is a joke right? Fozzie was the one who lost to Argentina for the first time ever. Pretty poor performance that day against a weaker Argentina team than this.

38 points is the most NZ has conceded in NZ ever?

They also scored 30 and were reasonably in control of the game for 60 minutes so not a hiding by any means.
Fozzie however presided over a 40-25 humiliation in Paris. If you think this performance was worse than that horror show then I want what you're smoking.

You seem to be forgetting just how bad the Foster era was: dude lost 6 out of 8 test matches and somehow still kept his job. You're completely delusional if you think the Razor era is already comparable to that.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Losing by 8 to a team that just made the Semi-finals is something that is going to happen. I could see going crazy if they lose 3 out of 6 or something but you are gonna lose games. NZ media does a good job of stirring up their own people if the team has a hiccup.

 

[IT157]

I want to know where all the Foster haters are? having to deal with them complaining for years about foster and how great Razor is.
This loss is worse than any of those losses under Foster, 38 points is the most NZ has conceded in NZ ever? I can already see one person still blaming Foster which is Hilarious.

You can't say Razor inherited a bad team, if not for a red card and some really unlucky/inaccurate refereeing calls they would have won a WC. Despite not winning the WC the AB's played great rugby last year.

Amazing result for Argentina, you could see as soon as the game started Argentina were playing like it was a final and really wanted it and the AB's were going through the motions. Despite that the AB's seemed to have the game under control until that slap back from Reece gifted a soft try. Then the 2nd half the AB's forwards lost parity the lineouts and Scrums were ugly, they started to concede turnovers at the breakdown and that was where the game was lost.

The bad:
I don't think Savea worked as captain, sure as a player he gave it all, but the team needed direction and don't feel like he did what was needed. it's not enough to lead by example he needs to gather, lift and focus the team and I didn't see him or anyone do that.
ball security has been an issue in all tests this year IMO. hate on Sam Cane all you want but he would visit more rucks than anyone else and secure ball which was always a thankless job. Dalton and Savea are not that type of player. Sam whitelock was another player who was a master there.
obviously, locks are a problem right now, lost Brodie and Sam, plus Scott & Patrick are injured and Josh Lord is only just making a comeback. despite that I thought they did ok as individuals it was more the forward effort, they were a part of that lacked.
Aumua - we all know what impact he can make but if he can't throw then he shouldn't be playing. Those last lineouts that were a shambles had a huge impact.
The 2 big mistakes. Reece seems to be struggling to get into games, he's been busy without making much impact. He really did overdo that slap back, but it was still unlucky. Just need to be smarter and have more patient. I'm not sure about that DMac pass, he seems to be getting the blame but the pass looked ok it just seemed to go right between the Barrett's and maybe they both thought the other was going to take it.
I'm not sold on the structure of the attack it seemed like we operated with quite short passing from 9 and again struggled to get wide but I think generally the attack was OK we just seemed to struggle securing the ball with the forwards. Again, if we are going to operate with a close in attack like that, we need people doing that Sam Cane job and be on hand to secure the ball when needed, Too many turnovers.

The Good
I think DMac is showing that when we can deliver him some good ball he will get the attack going. we really just didn't get enough of it.
ALB was the pick of the backs and Darry played well in the first half in particular. I thought Codie Taylor had a better game after being fairly quiet against England. Savea carried well and won some big turnovers. Talea was sharp.

Argentina were ruthless, could see in their intensity and some of the tactics they used that they really targeted this game.

Interesting Times, the Razor Honeymoon is basically over. We expect an AB team to build well over 5-6 weeks they have had. Razor is inexperienced in building a test team in this way, the forwards haven't turned in anything close to what would be considered a good performance. Either/or/both the lineout and scrum have been problematic and now the breakdown gets exploited. The team is 6+ weeks together now and in some ways its back to the drawing board?

Agreed!

Razor loses a match in charge. It's Fosters fault! lol

 

[OllyM97]

The NZ media have created massively unrealistic expectations for Razor's first year. I saw a couple of Kiwi journalists predict at the start of the year that the ABs could win 13 of the 14 tests this season. Get in the real world. A team stripped of Mo'unga, Smith, Whitelock, Retallick, Cane etc and with Jordan out injured were always going to take time to find their feet - new combinations and game plans don't just click straight away.

I thought at the start of the year with the tough schedule that they had that the ABs would cop at least 4 defeats. it was fanciful to expect a re-building side to beat South Africa, Ireland or France away from home. This is not the era of the All Blacks being the undisputed top dogs anymore. To me you can only start to make a judgement on Razor in 2025.

 

[Ferrari333SP]

 

[Alex Anghel]

The NZ media have created massively unrealistic expectations for Razor's first year. I saw a couple of Kiwi journalists predict at the start of the year that the ABs could win 13 of the 14 tests this season. Get in the real world. A team stripped of Mo'unga, Smith, Whitelock, Retallick, Cane etc and with Jordan out injured were always going to take time to find their feet - new combinations and game plans don't just click straight away.

I thought at the start of the year with the tough schedule that they had that the ABs would cop at least 4 defeats. it was fanciful to expect a re-building side to beat South Africa, Ireland or France away from home. This is not the era of the All Blacks being the undisputed top dogs anymore. To me you can only start to make a judgement on Razor in 2025.

I believe that the overall biggest expectation was for Razor to break the Hansen/Foster post 2017 pattern and playing specialists in their respective positions.

I believe it hasn't happened so far for a number of reasons, the most obvious one being that he was afraid to start his tenure by losing games by playing newbies at 6, 8 and/or 13. I am glad that the Argentina loss happened way earlier than almost anyone would have expected though.

 

[miccloarch]

I believe that the overall biggest expectation was for Razor to break the Hansen/Foster post 2017 pattern and playing specialists in their respective positions.

Was it? There are advantages to either approach. Depends a lot on the specific individuals. Telea does look lost defensively on the left wing (I think he should be dropped for Clarke anyway) but Ardie is world class at 8 and 7. Utility players are important too.

he was afraid to start his tenure by losing games by playing newbies at 6, 8 and/or 13

This is definitely true but it's probably going to continue because as you can see, one loss and AB fans lose their minds (and Fozzie fans would obviously love to see him fail). He wants to build winning momentum and good performances before experimenting too much. Even now though, it seems there's information overload and some players look a bit confused at times.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I believe that the overall biggest expectation was for Razor to break the Hansen/Foster post 2017 pattern and playing specialists in their respective positions.

I believe it hasn't happened so far for a number of reasons, the most obvious one being that he was afraid to start his tenure by losing games by playing newbies at 6, 8 and/or 13. I am glad that the Argentina loss happened way earlier than almost anyone would have expected though.

that was my expectation.....and yet we've seen almost all the loosies selected as 5.5 (barret still seen as an option at 6), 6.5 or 7.5 (savea was largely playing 7 in Japan), no out and out 8

i think you right but its also such an obviously flawed idea seeing that is one of the reasons people believe fozzie failed

 

[Saintjay]

I've only just caught up on the game. Why was it so empty? Was it ticket costs, apathy, not a popular All Blacks area, a nothing game to fans. I was just surprised as AB's attendances always seem decent.

 

[saulan]

I've only just caught up on the game. Why was it so empty? Was it ticket costs, apathy, not a popular All Blacks area, a nothing game to fans. I was just surprised as AB's attendances always seem decent.

Seen a lot of talk on this. Combination wildly expensive tickets, Wellington getting two NZ tests (with this one being the less appealling of the two) and a general perception of a poor game day experience for supporters (latter is more of a minor point, but ties in quite strongly with the first one, especially when whether isn't the most appealling).

 

[Kiwiwomble]

that sums it up, but a bit of a stuff up seeing as Hamilton and Chch dont have tests this year

 

[Ripper]

Well that sucked