[2024 TRC] South Africa v New Zealand - 31/8/2024

[Alex Anghel]

Bringing up 2016-2017 is disqualifying. Those teams were an aberration in the 100+ year Springbok history.

Plenty from those teams further became World Champions in 2019 and 2023 though…

I don't think it's necessary a drop in talent for NZ after 2015, IMO it's rather a combination of unfortunate factors that ultimately lead to the All Blacks losing that aura of invincibility.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Plenty from those teams further became World Champions in 2019 and 2023 though…

I don't think it's necessary a drop in talent for NZ after 2015, IMO it's rather a combination of unfortunate factors that ultimately lead to the All Blacks losing that aura of invincibility.

If you made a list of the top 23 players in NZ history, a majority of the team would be made up of players from 2010-2016.

Don't believe me. The reigning world player of the year wouldn't even start on those teams and struggle to consistently make the bench.

 

[Horacito]

For all the flack Razor's been getting, the ab's are looking really fine, improving every match

 

[Alex Anghel]

If you made a list of the top 23 players in NZ history, a majority of the team would be made up of players from 2010-2016.

And leave out players like John Kirwan, Sean Fitzpatrick, Michael Jones, Zinzan Brooke, Jonah Lomu, Justin Marshall, Jeff Wilson, Andrew Mehrtens, Tana Umaga, Christian Cullen, Carlos Spencer, Doug Howlett, Joe Rockokoko?

 

[ChicagoKid]

And leave out players like John Kirwan, Sean Fitzpatrick, Michael Jones, Zinzan Brooke, Jonah Lomu, Justin Marshall, Jeff Wilson, Andrew Mehrtens, Tana Umaga, Christian Cullen, Carlos Spencer, Doug Howlett, Joe Rockokoko?

Yes, most of them. The All Blacks fans saw a once in a century confluence of talent. In a country with fewer people than most cities, it's statistically unlikely to happen again in our lifetimes.

The ABs will continue to be one of the best teams in the world. They will not win 90%+ of their games and have 10/15 starting world 15.

In the end, I'd say Razor wins between 70-75% of the games and is a contender to win the RWC2027. But he's not a messiah and NZ public are starting to realize that fact.

 

[OllyM97]

Bringing up 2016-2017 is disqualifying. Those teams were an aberration in the 100+ year Springbok history.

I posted in 2020 I expected the All Blacks to slip to around 3-5th in the world over the next decade, regardless of the coach. It's a talent reversion to the mean after those historic 2010-2017 years.

To be honest the whole 2010s I would class as an aberration in the ABs/Boks rivalry. NZ won 17 of 21 matches against SA in that span, including 7 of 9 in South Africa. The All Blacks from 2010-2017 only lost 9 of 108 test matches. Yes the Boks got a few hidings but everyone did from that NZ side. They had generational players and unbeatable depth over those years.

If you look at the results in SA back then, the Boks were always in every game and were in winning positions quite often but were never able to see it out. Even an abysmal SA team with an awful coach nearly beat NZ at home in 2017 (25-24 defeat). Bar the odd exception, ABs-Boks games in SA have always been close.

 

[Alex Anghel]

Yes, most of them. The All Blacks fans saw a once in a century confluence of talent. In a country with fewer people than most cities, it's statistically unlikely to happen again in our lifetimes.

Well, that's an interesting take for sure…because in my view, Howlett and Lomu/Rockokoko were better than any 11/14 of 2010-2016 and from that era, only Whitelock, Retallick, Kaino, McCaw, Aaron Smith and Nonu win the competition with their previous counterparts…at 15 I would take Cullen for Smith, at 13 Tana for Conrad…was Read better than Zinzan…Carter than Mehrthens/Specer?

By the way, NZ 2015 had probably more than 10 players in the world's best 15…it was most likely the greatest rugby team ever assembled, starting 15 and match 23 wise.

 

[OllyM97]

You can't have watched Carter for much of his career if you don't think he was better than Spencer or Mehrtens. As good as those two were, DC was in a different league. Going completely off the topic of the thread but my ABs XV of the pro era would be:

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10. Dan Carter
11. Julian Savea
12. Conrad Smith
13. Tana Umaga
14. Jonah Lomu
15. Christian Cullen

Yes he wasn't around in the ABs as long as other wingers but I think people forget how good Savea was in his prime. He was a monster.

That 2015 side would get well over half of the slots in a composite XV of the pro era and to think otherwise is daft. Most people would probably pick Nonu at centre but I always thought Conrad was the critical link man in the backs for the ABs and did a lot of the dirty work in terms of organisation.

I don't think any of the current All Blacks get in that side. Even Ardie wouldn't be starting.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I detest the term, but **** me the copium in here.

 

[ChicagoKid]

You can't have watched Carter for much of his career if you don't think he was better than Spencer or Mehrtens. As good as those two were, DC was in a different league. Going completely off the topic of the thread but my ABs XV of the pro era would be:

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10. Dan Carter
11. Julian Savea
12. Conrad Smith
13. Tana Umaga
14. Jonah Lomu
15. Christian Cullen

Yes he wasn't around in the ABs as long as other wingers but I think people forget how good Savea was in his prime. He was a monster.

That 2015 side would get well over half of the slots in a composite XV of the pro era and to think otherwise is daft. Most people would probably pick Nonu at centre but I always thought Conrad was the critical link man in the backs for the ABs and did a lot of the dirty work in terms of organisation.

I don't think any of the current All Blacks get in that side. Even Ardie wouldn't be starting.

1000%

Ardie doesn't get within a country mile of starting over Kaino, Read, or McCaw.

The ABs didn't have generational players, they had all-century players at every level.

I'm from Chicago. I got to watch Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman, and Scottie Pippen all play on a single team.

That will never happen again. People in Chicago are not expecting Michael Jordan 2.0 to come down the street.

The All Blacks can't even find a replacement for Kaino, but expect to win 90% of games. It's not happening.

 

[Alex Anghel]

I'm from Chicago. I got to watch Michael Jordan, Dennis Rodman, and Scottie Pippen all play on a single team.

Last week I have finally re-watched the 1992 Men's Basketball Olympic final...that US team was probably the greatest ever assembled in ANY sports...absolutely mind blowing.

 

[Alex Anghel]

You can't have watched Carter for much of his career if you don't think he was better than Spencer or Mehrtens. As good as those two were, DC was in a different league.

It was more food for thought than a clear statement from my side...for me, they all 3 were the best 10s I have ever seen, no disrespect to any other nation's iconic 10 though .

 

[ChicagoKid]

Last week I have finally re-watched the 1992 Men's Basketball Olympic final...that US team was probably the greatest ever assembled in ANY sports...absolutely mind blowing.

My mother is from Louisiana and moved north after meeting my father.

I've never seen her watch much sports except for the occasional American football game. But if you bring up Michael Jordan, she almost starts getting choked up describing watching every game they could and how he possessed supernatural powers.

Jordan and the 1992 Dream Team created a borderline religious fanaticism across the US. We haven't had anything remotely close since then.

I'm guessing the 2010-2016 ABs had a similar impact in NZ. So I understand the deep, almost primal desire to feel that sensation again.

On another note, the Breakdown should give more airtime to Mils. Guy is smart, calculated, and passionate. Jeff Wilson and John Kirwan don't do it for me.

 

[miccloarch]

Classic AB choke. Had the game in the bag, couldn't see it out. Started playing scared in the last 15 minutes instead of continuing as before.

For 60 minutes they played a great game though. Boks made mistakes but we forced those mistakes.

Great teams don't give the ref a chance to influence the result but the Bongi "try" was daylight robbery. It was so obvious they cut the replay short every time lol.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Classic AB choke. Had the game in the bag, couldn't see it out. Started playing scared in the last 15 minutes instead of continuing as before.

For 60 minutes they played a great game though. Boks made mistakes but we forced those mistakes.

Great teams don't give the ref a chance to influence the result but the Bongi "try" was daylight robbery. It was so obvious they cut the replay short every time lol.

The focus on the Bongi try by the media and fans is bizarre to me. It happened in the 16th minute. It didn't change the outcome.

You can't look at an event in the 16th minute and act like the game would have progressed the exact same way no matter the decision. If it happened in the 76th, I would understand the frustration, but the reaction is bizarre.

 

[WP-stormer]

A lot of people on a claiming bongis try wasn't a try.i suggest u check the laws particularly 11.5 that was a try all day long.same people very quiet about cane who should have seen red,cassia yellow card when no ruck was formed so couldn't be offside,the ball that went into touch yet a Nz player touched it before hand.

 

[miccloarch]

The focus on the Bongi try by the media and fans is bizarre to me. It happened in the 16th minute. It didn't change the outcome.

You can't look at an event in the 16th minute and act like the game would have progressed the exact same way no matter the decision. If it happened in the 76th, I would understand the frustration, but the reaction is bizarre.

Never said it would have changed the outcome, just good to troll Bok fans who (in general) always complain when decisions go against them too.

 

[Larksea]

Springbok fans don't want to admit it, but anything less than a 2-0 sweep is a failure. Their failure to completely dominate the All Blacks in a year and win a full Rugby Championship is the reason why I still put the 2009 Boks team ahead of this one. The 09 team whitewashed a much stronger NZ side, and they played them 3 times. RWC wins aren't everything. That's not me having a go at SA, winning back to back world cups is an amazing achievement, but in between WC's still matters when it comes to judging how dominant a team really is.

in 09 Dan carter was injured but that wasn't the main issue as Donald actually played pretty well in his absence. Issac Ross was selected at lock and also given the duties to call the lineouts in what will likely go down in one of the biggest all black selection mistakes ever. Issac Ross was soon cut and Tom Donnelly was selected, Steve Hansen lost his duties with the forwards and Henry took over and the pack completely transformed with Tom Donnelly proving somewhat a revelation. AB's regained the #1 world ranking and Issac Ross AB career ended as maybe the worst AB ever. What I mean to say is that AB's side for the tri nations missing dan carter and with Issac Ross running the lineouts was prob the worst side the AB's fielded between 2004-2015.