[2024 TRC] South Africa v New Zealand - 07/9/2024

[Leonormous Boozer]

This is a myth, sorry...the experience of a serial winner head coach translates at any level.

You don't think international rugby has a massive learning curve?

 

[Alex Anghel]

You don't think international rugby has a massive learning curve?

Does it have other rules than the national one?

The other big issue for the ABs is that the NZRU executives decided in 2020 to basically kick out SĂ from Super Rugby…and the "dividends" have started to show big time, as tying up to Australia for the local competition created false positives with regard to the status of the development of the younger players…

But no worries, mate, the ABs will come again and we will beat you at Lansdowne Road in the Fall…

 

[ChicagoKid]

Does it have other rules than the national one?

Club rugby and test rugby are two different sports, IMO. The tactics, players, and coaching are separate.

I know I'll get pushback but we have an equivalent in the US with college football and the NFL. Basically the same sport minus a few rules, but very, very few coaches have had success in both college and the NFL.

 

[Alex Anghel]

Club rugby and test rugby are two different sports, IMO. The tactics, players, and coaching are separate.

The only real difference is the pressure that comes from the "weight" of an international test, in comparison to club footy, IMO.

The tactics and the selection could be tweaked accordingly and I seriously doubt that a serial winner coach in Super Rugby (his Crusaders won the competition when the SA teams were in it as well) cannot cut it at international level too. All I hope is that he will be as bold as people thought and take off this cloth of fear by playing promising youngsters/blooding in new combinations, instead of using the old heads.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Razor is the only coach in tier 1 rugby right now without any previous international experience. It shows. NZ don't know what to do after a handful of phases in possession. He needs to learn fast in the next 18 months.

Quesada's only international experience was being assistant coach in France's 2008 squad. hardly a strong credential with regards to his international cv.

Regarding the all blacks, that's not what i saw. They were playing South Africa, in South Africa ffs. And it's not like they got completely outplayed or something. They lost by 6 after missing a few kicks. The number of unforced errors in the first 20 minutes was something you generally do not see from NZ teams.

I know I'll get pushback but we have an equivalent in the US with college football and the NFL. Basically the same sport minus a few rules, but very, very few coaches have had success in both college and the NFL.

The problem with that argument is you would need to explain why. If the rules are the same you would have to attribute the difference to the pressure the scenario places on the team/coaches.
I do not see any evidence to support that. A coach/player feels more pressure playing the rugby championship than the European rugby champions final or the SR final?
I dont buy it but i am willing to see what evidence do you have to support such a claim.

Coaching is basically (i'm simplifying so kindly give me some rope) about 3 things 1) player selection, 2) tactics and 3) ego management. Where exactly does the problem lie?
Is he picking all the wrong players? I dont see it.
Are his tactics wayy off? I dont see that either.
Does it look like he has a cabaret on his hands? Doesn't look like that.

He knows the players, he is a very skillful tactician and he's managed legends before. I do not buy, for a second, the nz coach is crumbling under the pressure of the the rugby championship, but i am willing to look at evidence that proves me wrong.
The problem imo, lies with execution, which is understandable given this is a bit of a transition period. AND, and this is speculation, the benchmark used to measure them: which is 2015's ABs team.

 

[Alex Anghel]

Speaking of the "international experience" requirement, can someone tell me what was Rassie Erasmus's previous international experience?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Does it have other rules than the national one?

The other big issue for the ABs is that the NZRU executives decided in 2020 to basically kick out SĂ from Super Rugby…and the "dividends" have started to show big time, as tying up to Australia for the local competition created false positives with regard to the status of the development of the younger players…

But no worries, mate, the ABs will come again and we will beat you at Lansdowne Road in the Fall…

It's having guys in camp for about 10-15 weeks a year rather than 30+. It's a totally different ball game as a coach.

My concern would be that it doesn't look like NZ know what they're trying to do. Most international coaches stutter at the start of their tenures these days, Rassie and Andy Farrell both took a year at least to get going. But there was a blueprint from the start and I don't see it here.

Razor obviously has potential but he's a project.

Speaking of the "international experience" requirement, can someone tell me what was Rassie Erasmus's previous international experience?

He was in the South Africa set up. Twice.

 

[Alex Anghel]

He was in the South Africa set up. Twice.

He was a technical specialist in 2011 with SA and in an administrative role in late 2017…hardly an "international experience" I might say…

Anyways, Razor surely needs to be brave enough now and stop playing people out of position/relaying on the remaining of the old guard. The house needs a clean up and this will entail a bit of a sacrifice, result wise.

 

[Horacito]

Truly strange to see a kiwi team make so many unforced errors in SA

I think this was totally foreseeable by anyone who's not kidding themselves: this is the best team in SA's history (at least in the professional era) and they just won a RWC nine months ago
the only team in the world capable of getting any good result in SA at the moment is Ireland, which is continuing on a 5year run with the same coach and consistently in the world's top 3, winning the six nations like it was a regional league and only defeating the bokke by 1 point last minute with a drop goal
the kiwis are making the same mistake they made with poor ian foster: intead of talking rugby protein (tactics, strategy, player selection, set pieces, etc) they talk results, which is useless and only drives the outrage machine called the internet; also they just **** on the players, which is equally unproductive
truth is that NZ is building back just like any of us, just like SA, with an important difference: the bokke continue with the same coach/ stuff of the last two RWC and can make really progressive changes while staying consistent with overall strategies and implement tactics and such, while NZ has to go by trial and error

just saying, I would consider what NZ did to Foster for 4 years and find a new approach instead of comparing Razor's record to Hansen or some other irrelevant crap instead of valueing Razor for the class act and genius rugby coach he is. He's also a sweetheart and a great guy too, so maybe support the team and be more tolerant when things don't go well
this doesn't apply to my team, I just bang on them any chance I get

 

[saguy]

Missed the haka. Did the Cape Maori shut those disrespectful Saffas up?

Doubt it.

Respek other cultures, jou doo5

FWIW I was at the stadium, and compared to the noise the rest of the game, the stadium was incredibly quiet during the haka
People were shushing each other and there was a huge effort to quiet the stadium

The sportsmanship of the crowd was amazing, applauding things like NZ anthem, haka, etc.

I was surprised listening to the audio on the broadcast though, it definitely wasn't as loud as that in the stadium for the haka.

Ok, the only time dmac got the crap boo'd out of him for a kick was after the Willie yellow.
The rest of the time the noise in stadium went from like a 10 to a 1.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Club rugby and test rugby are two different sports, IMO. The tactics, players, and coaching are separate.

100% agree. E.g. In club rugby no prop gets penalised for moving his body to check a quicksilver back chasing a kick through. It's just accepted that it happens.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Further to the above. I noticed Sam Kane also checked the Bok's kick chaser he was marking. Can you have two yellow cards against the same team, on the same play?

 

[ChicagoKid]

Further to the above. I noticed Sam Kane also checked the Bok's kick chaser he was marking. Can you have two yellow cards against the same team, on the same play?

Another selection debacle by Razor.

Sam Cane's international career was over. The only reason Razor brings him back is his experience in big tests.

He shouldn't feature again for the ABs. Get Dalton or another replacement in there.

Razor's conservativeness has been quite shocking as an outsider. I expected him to tear the Fozzie bandaid off, but he's basically kept his selections.

Clark vs. Sevu. Beauden at 10, 15 or 23. Ardie at 7 or 8. It's the same story year after year after year.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i am so sick of hearing "experience" as the reason to selection someone instead of form...experience at being bang average or experience at loosing is a pretty **** reason to pick someone

 

[miccloarch]

Another selection debacle by Razor.

Sam Cane's international career was over. The only reason Razor brings him back is his experience in big tests.

He shouldn't feature again for the ABs. Get Dalton or another replacement in there.

Razor's conservativeness has been quite shocking as an outsider. I expected him to tear the Fozzie bandaid off, but he's basically kept his selections.

Clark vs. Sevu. Beauden at 10, 15 or 23. Ardie at 7 or 8. It's the same story year after year after year.

With all respect, as an outsider you're not seeing the patterns of play and you're judging them by the standards of 2015. A few selection here and there won't make a difference, as we saw in this very test match with Ratima starting at 9 and Jordan finally playing 15.

This is a rebuild and the first year of a 4 year cycle. "Neutrals" getting sucked into clickbait mainstream NZ media rugby "analytics" is funny to watch.