[2015 RWC] Quarter Final 3: Ireland vs. Argentina (18/10/2015)

[Amiga500]

but we've never really had a coach brave enough to sacrifice games to play an expansive game

Not true.

The dagger did have no problem with elaborate back play.

But, as he himself would say, "you can't unring a bell".

 

[munstermuffin]

Not true.

The dagger did have no problem with elaborate back play.

But, as he himself would say, "you can't unring a bell".

But as in have it built in to a gameplan I don't think any coach has really been brave enough for fear of not getting results or backlash.

 

[dunney77]

Why can't smidt bring his Leinster flair to this Irish side?

 

[dafydd94]

That dude's a worthless troll but you've really struck a chord with me here Muff. You can be damn sure the players and management will have this down as a failure.

I just put this into a group chat of mine in response to a FB post with a picture of the team captioned "Proud to be Irish":
"Rant time: Posts like these can go **** themselves. Of course I ****ing proud of my nationality but I was before we lost this ****ing game, reaching a semi final of a World Cup is something we haven't done before (and I'm pretty sure we never ****ing will) so had we done it it would be something about our country to be more proud of. "Proud to be Irish" after a match like this or when Bosnia beat us next month should be translated as "I'm a ****ing bandwagoner anyway so mediocrity is fine, I had fun while it lasted". It's a ****ing bull**** attitude and something that really embarrasses me about this circle jerk of a nation, Argentina wouldn't be at that **** had they lost and neither would Australia, NZ or SA. it's one of the reasons why this country will never be winners on the world stage in any team sport. ****..."

I think it's how we should be feeling right now. Successful teams have harsh fans, it may be because they're used to success but knowing they'll be called out on their failures drives them on. In Ireland we lose and we think it's fine if "they tried their best" in this case trying their best wasn't good enough and that really has to be questioned. "You did well boys, hard luck" isn't good enough for a team who was ranked 3rd in the world from the competetive matches they played before this tournament.

Had to sign up to say this is the best post I've read in ages. All my mates are saying this about our (wales) loss to South Africa. When does losing but playing well become not good enough? This is what's holding us back.

 

[bjarg]

I agree with not getting carried away, but what, exactly, is not true about us being favourites against any NH team if we were to play, say, tomorrow?

If we were to play tomorrow against a full irish or welsh team I dont think we'd be favourites.
I even think it would be optimistic to say it would be 50 50.
Things have changed, I just dont think they have changed THAT much.

 

[WaterboySA]

Editost hanged a bit, was for Amiga500 - My friend, that's NOT what I said, lol......there's a diffs between having skill and being able to do what they did on the weekend.

 

[MunsterMan]

Why can't smidt bring his Leinster flair to this Irish side?

I reckon when Schmidt took charge of Ireland, he looked at the squad and decided a tight, percentage based game suited the squad best. Players like Mike Ross, Devin Toner and Rob Kearney are just not suited to an expansive game. Even legends like O'Connell in the twilight of his career fall in to this bracket too. Hopefully he will go back to the drawing board now, and be ruthless in reshaping the squad to one more suited to the positive rugby his Leinster side played.

Moore and Furlong to be developed at tight head. Henderson and Foley in the second row. I'd personally love to see Zebo at fullback for Munster and Ireland. Let's try McCloskey at 12, let's get a few offloads going. Let's be positive.

 

[dunney77]

I reckon when Schmidt took charge of Ireland, he looked at the squad and decided a tight, percentage based game suited the squad best. Players like Mike Ross, Devin Toner and Rob Kearney are just not suited to an expansive game. Even legends like O'Connell in the twilight of his career fall in to this bracket too. Hopefully he will go back to the drawing board now, and be ruthless in reshaping the squad to one more suited to the positive rugby his Leinster side played.

Moore and Furlong to be developed at tight head. Henderson and Foley in the second row. I'd personally love to see Zebo at fullback for Munster and Ireland. Let's try McCloskey at 12, let's get a few offloads going. Let's be positive.

I agree with you. First thing is to tie Schmidt down until the next World Cup if possible so he has a full four year cycle to prepare.

Henshaw should be moved to 13 and as much as it pains me to say it, we need to gradually remove the players who won't be around in four years. Sexton should be given a 10 as his understudy whilst he moves into his own twilight years.

Is there a chance for JJ Hanrahan?

 

[justanargie]

Honestly, I didn'texpect a +20 difference as I said before the game but I was confident in a Puma win. Even with the Irish comeback, I have the feeling that this team could score a try to win if we were in a close disadvantage...
My conclusion, after the game, is that Ireland is likely a 15 squad, or at least there is a notorious gap with the bench and a RWC is a bloody tough and long competition. Great team though, maybe they can improve in attack, I note them quite predictable (even against Italy with full squad).
Hat off for Irish fans too.

 

[Garra de Puma]

It was a real honor to play against such a great elite team like Ireland. Sure winning was nice and I feel very happy for my team, but much nicer was to see both teams giving and leaving it all on the field. Thank you Ireland and Irish fans you should know I always cheer for you in the Six Nations Championship.

I wish this same spirit was shared in all sports, especially football (all that hatred and poisonous comments and attitudes are certainly annoying). Rugby is a sport played by gentlemen

 

[Superalexmarket]

Excuse me for my ignorance, but why some irish players didn't sang the "Ireland's call". (The Ulster issue maybe?)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Excuse me for my ignorance, but why some irish players didn't sang the "Ireland's call". (The Ulster issue maybe?)

Ireland's call is our rugby anthem and a lot of people, myself included, think it's kind of ****e so they tend not to sing it. Amhrainn na Bhfiann is the South of Ireland's anthem and the North's would be God Save the queen so we can't have a national anthem apart from when we're playing in Ireland.

 

[jomjom]

I hate Irelands Call and I cringe everytime I see the team sing it. Whats the alternative though :/

 

[Superalexmarket]

But when Ireland play in Belfast,"God save the Queen" is played?? I don't think so.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But when Ireland play in Belfast,"God save the Queen" is played?? I don't think so.

No, much like Scotland and Wales we'd avoid singing England's anthem.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just got back from the game earlier this morning. Atmosphere was amazing before and during the game. Unreal support from both teams.

Everyone on Irish rugby forums have been slating Ireland, calling them a bunch of bottlers, no depth etc etc, which I don't agree with at all.

Firstly, the loss of Payne was huge, in attack and especially defense. Our line speed out wide was so passive as we had to accommodate Keith Earls, who is a decent winger and a horrific 13. Payne is our defensive leader in the backs and is key in our organisation. We had to rely on a passive drift defense which the Argies exploited expertly. Our forwards looked headless in defense for some of the game without POC organising them as well.

The loss of Payne, Sexton, POC, POM and SOB was massive. I thought we coped well enough without them, but we definitely would have had a much greater chance of winning with them on the pitch. The go-forward ball from SOB and POM would have put them on the backfoot. The ruthless rucking of POM, SOB and POC would have generated much quicker ball for us and would have slowed down and turned over their ball more often. I thought Henry had a great game tbh. Sexton is in a different class to Madigan. Madigan shines when he's on the front foot but struggles big time when his pack are failing. Sexton is an expert at relieving pressure for the forwards in terms of great line kicking, setting up good options in attack etc. Sexton is far superior to Madigan on the front foot also and is a vicious defender. Payne is the most under rated attacker in the Irish squad. Moronic journalists, eg Matt Williams, are unable to see his importance on the pitch. He fixes men perfectly, creates space, runs great lines, fantastic distribution.

Keith Earls was a disaster. He made one half break from a Madigan inside ball and that was the height of his contribution. He lost most of the collisions he was involved in, couldn't defend for his life, poor at rucking. Fitzgerald was by far the better option for 13 but due to issues with game time in the warm ups and first 3 pool games, Earls had more time spent with Henshaw so the midfield partnership had to stay for continuity's sake. Fitzgerald is 10 times the player Earls is.

Garces really screwed us over. I've rewatched the game and couldn't believe some of the calls he made, the red card sticks out as a shocker. We had a lot of momentum going our way and with Argentina down to 14 for the rest of the game, we had a major opportunity to close the game out. There were other penalties that were nonsensical, like Heaslip getting trapped in a ruck right in front of him where Heaslip tried to roll away, even though he was held by an Argentine player, but Garces gave a penalty to Argentina. I knew Garces was a horrific ref going into the game so I wasn't really surprised with some of the decisions he made. In no way I'm blaming Garces for the loss but he did have a major influence on it.

The fine margins between losing and winning in rugby are so overlooked. On Sunday, Argentina got the rub of the green on many occasions. Sanchez hit the post with his conversion and scored, Madigan hit the post and missed with a penalty. Imhoff was barely in line for the chip and his knee was half an inch from the deadball line. Madigan tapped and went from what looked liked the spot where the penalty was awarded and scored but it was called back. On another day, a different ref would have awarded the try. Murray knocked on from the base of the scrum (unforced error) from which Argentina then scored. Argentina miss threw a line out which Strauss and different Argentina player competed for and Strauss barely missed the ball. 1 phase later Argentina score. Toner's high tackle was stupid and reckless but if he was tackling a player who was an inch taller, it would have been legal. There are plenty of other examples that I could pick out but there's no point. These things happen in sport and an unusual amount of 50/50 events went in Argentina's favour but that's life. There's nothing we can do about it.

The amount of knock ons from Ireland was insane. Just players trying too hard to chase a lead which lead to forcing passes, over running lines etc etc. You can't win tight games when you get plenty of opportunities and butcher almost all of them. We ran some decent plays that I hadn't seen before but we would have tried more plays if we had the likes of Sexton, Payne, SOB etc on the pitch. Our lack of leadership from POC and Sexton would have settled us into the game quicker and we probably wouldn't have conceded those early tries, but i dont know, all ifs and buts.

As good as Argentina were, I think they are slightly over rated. From the 20th minute to the 68th minute, we were really hammering at them with an injury plagued side with a lack of leadership. We had a lot of momentum going our way but bad refereeing decisions, good defending and basic errors really cost us.

I dont think we played as terribly as people say we did. We were not at our best, even with the side we had out. A full strength Irish side against a full strength Argentine side with a decent ref (Owens) would most likely result in an Irish victory. Now we have to wait for 4 more years to have another crack at the world cup. This was by far our best chance. We had arguably the best coach in the world with a few world class players (including the best 10 in world rugby), the best squad depth we've ever had and a very nice draw. We'll lose POC, Best (who was immense on Sunday) and Ross for Japan and most likely Toner, Heaslip, Sexton, Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald (due to injury), Reddan, Henry, Cronin, White and more than likely Schmidt. I know it's impossible to accurately predict a team for a tournament in 6-12 months time (let alone 4 years time), but I think we'll be short on quality. Ringrose and JVdF look like good prospects but I can't see them being world class replacements. It's a dark day for Irish rugby.

 

[munstermuffin]

I hate Irelands Call and I cringe everytime I see the team sing it. Whats the alternative though :/

You mightn't be old enough but in 1987 the Rose of Tralee was actually used.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Welcome. I agree with some of your points but i think you're being a tad bias when you speak of luck. Let me use one example

On Sunday, Argentina got the rub of the green on many occasions. Sanchez hit the post with his conversion and scored, Madigan hit the post and missed with a penalty.

Sanchez hit the posts twice. The second one he not only did not score, but from that miss Ireland came back and scored their first try. So, in a nutshell, what could have been 23-3 for us ended up being 20-10.
If you call luck when your guy hits the post we can call that too. You can't have it both ways.

I dont think we played as terribly as people say we did. We were not at our best, even with the side we had out. A full strength Irish side against a full strength Argentine side with a decent ref (Owens) would most likely result in an Irish victory.

It's very easy to make statements like this one when there is no way to prove them wrong. I know you're emotional so i'll drop it.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Welcome. I agree with some of your points but i think you're being a tad bias when you speak of luck. Let me use one example

Sanchez hit the posts twice. The second one he not only did not score, but from that miss Ireland came back and scored their first try. So, in a nutshell, what could have been 23-3 for us ended up being 20-10.
If you call luck when your guy hits the post we can call that too. You can't have it both ways.

Ok sorry, completely forgot about that miss.

It's very easy to make statements like this one when there is no way to prove them wrong. I know you're emotional so i'll drop it.

Yeah I know there's no way to prove/disprove that but I still think we'd have too much for you guys. Your lineout capitulated yesterday. I think we had close to 100% success rate. Many of our power plays come from lineout moves. Toner and POC are key to our maul defense and attack which is where we generate a lot of penalties and trys. Having SOB come around the corner on 2nd phase ball after a gainline crash ball from Henshaw in the centre after a speedy lineout would allow us to get deep into your territory and pile on the pressure. SOB, POM, POC and Payne, along with Heaslip and Best would cause you guys major problems in the breakdown. Sexton with front foot ball would hammer yous. Fitzgerald tore you guys up during his cameo and if he had a legitimate 13 who could put him into space and fix defenders, he could damage your defense big time. Having an actual, genuine defensive unit would have suffocated your attack.
In no way am I saying that you guys got lucky or had the ref with you etc, you fully deserved your victory for the most part but there were major factors outside of Ireland's control that swung in your favour and with your ridiculously talented attacking threats and ambition, we couldn't cope with you. Well done and I am 100% supporting you guys for the rest of the tournament. Your fans were insane during the match.

 

[jomjom]

I think "most likely" result in an Irish victory is an overstretch but I do maintain that a full strength Irish squad with a better ref would have the scoreboards tighter at the very least. Impossible to say who would win it, I would still reckon the Pumas but it wouldnt have been as heartbreaking... But thats the world cup for ya. You get injuries and you have to deal with them, the champions can adapt to the changes whereas the losers will struggle...

I am more interested in building an in depth squad for the next WC than winning 6Ns to be honest