[2015 RWC] Quarter Final 2: New Zealand vs. France (17/10/2015)

[OverGore]

I think antoher thing that advantages NZ greatly is we are first and foremost a rugby playing nation. I'm not sure about France - is football the go to sport? But what it means is that 95% of the athletic talent (I made that number up but it serves to illustrate the point), goes to rugby and tends to stay there. We dont lose our best athletes to other sports. ALso, it means that as kids most of us grow up playing some form of rugby (league, union, touch, even bull-rush), in the play ground. So all the kids are developing skills right from the beginning. This is something that cannot be replicated IF rugby is not the number one sport! It is simply an advantage that NZ will always be likely to have!

yes exactly, but this depends of the areas in France but you are totally right.
Rugby isnt the national sport here, football, tennis and even cycling i think have bigger federations. Notice how we suck as well in cycling and tennis, but its another subject lol.
BUT, the number should fix this. We have so many kids learning rugby, and a quarter france is away from football, all south west is dedicated to rugby.

For example, how come your pillars all have 100times more technik and skills than ours? I speak outside scrum. I wonder if it cos you send youngsters to this role later than we do. Do you give a general common basis to all players til a certain age?
I wonder, really. In france, u learn what is to be learned about ur place, Period, and it starts soon. So pillars can barely do a pass, and if one can, hes called a world class one.
You must laugh so much when you see Bastareaud. Askin yourself, wtf is that player made for? In new zealand maybe he woudl have been a pillar in NRL. Here its a center.
The truth is , France got traumatized by the physical gap between sh and nh in the 90s. They felt it was the main reason of 1995 and 1999 loss. So all was centered then on building physical players. So we lost a lot by doing this.
We went from Sella to Bastareaud. Just this kills me.

 

[ABs2011]

yeah, like I said from day one NZ boys are kicking passing and running with the ball. I had a few big mates growing up, but out the back of the house, in the park, or at school they had ball in hand as much as anyone else, and the big boys all played touch as well. Everyone learns the skills instintively with mates from day one, and then when it comes to formal coaching WAY more emphasis is placed on skills in NZ, for all players.

 

[OverGore]

Ok ok, maybe we ll go faster by invading your country and make it a overseas department. In fact, England should claim back Australia, and help us invade new zealand

 

[austingtir]

Easy to prove you wrong : how do you explain that Argentina is so good in this RWC and in previous ones ? Maybe you do not know it but most of the argentinan players are playing in this ****ty championship and other european championships, even some were playing in french second division not so long ago. Already half of your ****ty championship theory is going down the hill.also, French clubs are winning quite often the heineken cup..Toulouse, toulon, Clermont are competitive clubs in Europe.It is not because you have read the crap of Graham Henry (who must be still angry after 2007) that suddenly it becomes the truth. Also, I'm not sure at all that any of the super rugby team would be able to compete with Toulon or Clermont Ferrand..Sad we can't see some matched between these sides, that would tell a bit more.However, yes there is defo some structural disadvantages for the french players who play in the top 14 compare to players who play in super rugby. I think it is important to have your facts right and knowing your subject before starting any conversation about these matters and being cocky : 1) 14 team french championship involved at least 26 matches over the season (+ Semi final and finals for the finalist of the championship) . So french players playing in the best french teams can play already 28 matches just for the championship. If you add to this 6 to 8 matches of European cup, we are around 35 matches. If you add to this international matches, we can reach more than 40 matches in the season for some players. No Southern hemisphere players can tell that they are playing 40 matches in the season. I think I have seen the numbers and we are around 30, max 35 matches for the best international players in Southern hemisphere. Yes we are talking about 1 to 2 months less of matches for southern rugby players that are playing in southern hemisphere.The result of this fact is that you can't play with the same intensity 40 matches that you are playing 30 or 35 matches. Rugby is highly demanding and having some rest for your body is really important and make a huge difference, even in terms of training times. You have 1 or 2 months more to train yourself on some specifics for example. No wonder why Frenchies always take slap in their face in the summer June tour, they are just burned after an extremely long season. and quite often , coach are calling in young players as half of the players are burnt or injured.2) There is no relegated team in super rugby, there is no second division. Every team is sure to be there the next year. There is in France, you have to win, not body build yourself (no time for this), have the nicest haircut possible or playing nice and cute games, as you do not want to go down in second division, it is a very important financial loss if it is happening3) I do not know how much the national team of NZ is playing together along the year, how much time they meet but I guess it is not far from 6 months a year (out of RWC years obviously). the french team, it is between 3 and 4 months if you include 6th nations, summer and automn tour. there is also here a huge disadvantage.4) The fact to have rich clubs is also a big disadvantage for the French national team. the french federation is poor, really poor, it has 40% less budget than the english federation (the fact that the english federation owns Twickenham is making hte different in terms of profit). the french players do not have any contract with their federation, only clubs are paying them so clubs does what they want and they let their players as little as possible training with teh french team. the NZ rugby is organized around the national federation and the province system is built to feed the national team.5) Even in the northern hemisphere, France is at disadvantage with british and irish countries. already, these countries have 12 team championship and no semi and finals. It is already at least 1 month less to play for the club or province. also , Ireland and Wales success is easily explainable by the fact that they have a system of provinces that is made to feed the national team. This explains the relative success of these countries as they have a better national organization than France or even England. What are the clubs interest to change what is working quite well for them if they are making money enough through TV rights and sponsorship ?? At least we have people in our stadium (I think the average of people coming to the stadium at Toulon for example is 20k, No super rugby team bring so muhc people in their stadium I believe where you could hear a moses fly )6) I will still support one of your point about learning the basics right and I think effectively that the formation in France is a bit light for the young players on some aspect of the game. It is something that France is aware of and it needs to be worked on.I have read people taht laugh about Savea not being tackled properly and suddenly make big conclusion on the french rugby not teaching to tackle properly. what loads of crap !!! on saturday evening, it was just individual mistakes, it happens but make some conclusion about the french rugby, it is just laughable...7) I will support another point as well. I think the northern hemisphere rugby has to change, we can't just play so slowly anymore, scrums should have lesser importance, play time during matches should be higher, there is defo some improvements to make at several level if we want to become competitive again8) The French championship has defo a sort of premier league football syndrom, I'm not hiding this and it needs to evolve if it wants to stay competitive. Strangely, I think this is good that Graham Henry tells some craps as it means that the idea will become that the french championship is crap and that big players from the south won't come anymore and it will push french clubs to evolve and to change to become attractive again.9) We compensate all these disadvantages by having a quite big stock of players as France is bigger than NZ in terms of license rugby players for example.Despite all these, we still are quite competitive. France is the country who has played the most matches of RWC just after the blacks. If you put in perspective all my points above, this is not such bad results.At the end, it is true, this is a french problem and you NZ do not have to care. However, I think it still good to be aware of all these facts before criticizing our championship, it is important to compare what is comparable.If your players were all starting suddenly to play in our championship, I think you would see quickly the difference in intensity they would be able to give to the national team.Again, what we have deeply missed on this RWC is mainly the passion, the fighting spirit as I explained, it could have compensate for a part our disadvantages. And this passion should be provided by some leaders and by the coaching team. Sadly it has not happened at all on this RWC, it has been a mistake to have Saint Andre during 4 years, he was not the right guy sadly. but to his credit , he is also prisonner of the french situation.Anyway. Bravo NZ, you have deserved largely your victory and I wish you the best of luck for the semis, I will be behind you like I have always been when France is not involved

ayeayeaye..... Wow to this reply. Some points you agree with me and then some you go off on some weird tangent.I dont expect you to agree with me and I most certainly dont agree that im wrong about what I said. Any of what I said for that matter. Argentina is in the rugby championship and this year alone you have seen their backline play improve markedly just from that!!! The fact of the matter is their backline players are to small hence why SBW and co owned them earlier in the year. There is nothing at all wrong with Argentinas forward pack in fact I honestly think they have one of if not the best forward pack going about except for their openside play which Creevy seems to cover.Argentinas game is based around a VERY good forward pack in particular the tight 5. there 6 and 8 arent bad either. The European game has never been that bad at forward pack work. The gulf between the northern and southern hemisphere is basically from 7 maybe skip 8 out AND most importantly how those two units work together to build their game!!! I dont think there are that many great 7's in europe (theres a couple but behind them theres nothing). Your competitions are just not good you can argue all you like its because of more games but the skills I see whenever I watch it is just not on the same level! When you play more games in a season yeah whatever thats a fair enough arguement but thats not the crux of the issue! All round skills are lower in the nothern hemisphere particularly in the backs!! When you have players that dont get to play against the best players in the world how are they going to compete when they have to stump up in one off games against the best?Argentina HAS been playing with the best for the last two years or so but they have always had an incredibly good forward pack hence their previous WC results!Argentina has beat Australia and Southafrica over the last two years which they could seldom muster going back an incredibly long time. This is a direct result of exposure to playing against superior athletes and higher skilled players from NZ, SA and Australia its that simple!!

Something changed in Argentinas back play after the NZ game this year they were like a different side (if you watched the game Creevy got stuck into his backs at times). They exposed the boks multiple times in that game earlier in the year and were quite unbelievable against Ireland on the weekend this is no coincidence!!!

I honestly feel that the NZ game earlier in the year woke something up in the Argentinians as their backline has not been terrible really since that game.

And regarding NZ crowd attendance thats just the way it is here small population and spoilt for choice. I think many people would rather go watch a club game than pay good money to watch super rugby when you can see more on the TV anyway. I personally havent attended a super 15 game since like 2009 and was pretty annoyed about it at westpack stadium in wellington (its a **** rugby stadium!!!). That said I would like to attend a Highlanders game if they continue their good form next year.

 

[barthelemy]

ayeayeaye..... Wow to this reply. Some points you agree with me and then some you go off on some weird tangent.I dont expect you to agree with me and I most certainly dont agree that im wrong about what I said. Any of what I said for that matter. Argentina is in the rugby championship and this year alone you have seen their backline play improve markedly just from that!!! The fact of the matter is their backline players are to small hence why SBW and co owned them earlier in the year. There is nothing at all wrong with Argentinas forward pack in fact I honestly think they have one of if not the best forward pack going about except for their openside play which Creevy seems to cover.Argentinas game is based around a VERY good forward pack in particular the tight 5. there 6 and 8 arent bad either. The European game has never been that bad at forward pack work. The gulf between the northern and southern hemisphere is basically from 7 maybe skip 8 out AND most importantly how those two units work together to build their game!!! I dont think there are that many great 7's in europe (theres a couple but behind them theres nothing). Your competitions are just not good you can argue all you like its because of more games but the skills I see whenever I watch it is just not on the same level! When you play more games in a season yeah whatever thats a fair enough arguement but thats not the crux of the issue! All round skills are lower in the nothern hemisphere particularly in the backs!! When you have players that dont get to play against the best players in the world how are they going to compete when they have to stump up in one off games against the best?Argentina HAS been playing with the best for the last two years or so but they have always had an incredibly good forward pack hence their previous WC results!Argentina has beat Australia and Southafrica over the last two years which they could seldom muster going back an incredibly long time. This is a direct result of exposure to playing against superior athletes and higher skilled players from NZ, SA and Australia its that simple!!

Something changed in Argentinas back play after the NZ game this year they were like a different side (if you watched the game Creevy got stuck into his backs at times). They exposed the boks multiple times in that game earlier in the year and were quite unbelievable against Ireland on the weekend this is no coincidence!!!

I honestly feel that the NZ game earlier in the year woke something up in the Argentinians as their backline has not been terrible really since that game.

And regarding NZ crowd attendance thats just the way it is here small population and spoilt for choice. I think many people would rather go watch a club game than pay good money to watch super rugby when you can see more on the TV anyway. I personally havent attended a super 15 game since like 2009 and was pretty annoyed about it at westpack stadium in wellington (its a **** rugby stadium!!!). That said I would like to attend a Highlanders game if they continue their good form next year.

Again, all what you are explaining, the so called skill level are down to the number of matches players are playing along a year and the focus put on rugby in NZ.

If you play 40 matches a year compare to somebody who plays 25 matches a year, you will be more injured, you will have less time to train on specifics, you will have less time to train on specific skills, you will have less time to train on collective tactics.

If you play only 3.5 months in a year (FR) with a group for the national team (if you are lucky to not be impacted by the injuries and have the same group of players), you will have less chances to succeed that a group of players that are training 6 months in the year together (NZ).

Number of matches players are playing is a central thing in the difference that exists between FR and NZ, you have to acknowledge it.

Read what ABs2011 is saying above, he is spot on and he understood what we are trying to say here. this is not too much about the skill level of the top14 but more about the cadences, the number of match we play in france. If you play less match, you can show better display, you can work on intensity, you can train on specifics. when you have a match almost every week along the year, this is much more difficult to be at the top all the time.

there is also a culture of rugby as explained by ABs2011, Young NZ guys are learning basics very early and in a good way definitely but I think it makes for 5% of the difference between FR and NZ, this is not the main difference in my perspective.

 

[Icemn]

well... you only get better by playing the best

and who does arg play against on a regular basis?

the southern hemisphere teams...

add Italy to the rugby championship for a few years and see how they beat the likes on eng etc etc well maybe not... but you see where im going with this... maybe samoa, fiji and japan...

 

[TheOvalBall]

Ok ok, maybe we ll go faster by invading your country and make it a overseas department. In fact, England should claim back Australia, and help us invade new zealand

 

[austingtir]

Again, all what you are explaining, the so called skill level are down to the number of matches players are playing along a year and the focus put on rugby in NZ.

If you play 40 matches a year compare to somebody who plays 25 matches a year, you will be more injured, you will have less time to train on specifics, you will have less time to train on specific skills, you will have less time to train on collective tactics.

If you play only 3.5 months in a year (FR) with a group for the national team (if you are lucky to not be impacted by the injuries and have the same group of players), you will have less chances to succeed that a group of players that are training 6 months in the year together (NZ).

Number of matches players are playing is a central thing in the difference that exists between FR and NZ, you have to acknowledge it.

Read what ABs2011 is saying above, he is spot on and he understood what we are trying to say here. this is not too much about the skill level of the top14 but more about the cadences, the number of match we play in france. If you play less match, you can show better display, you can work on intensity, you can train on specifics. when you have a match almost every week along the year, this is much more difficult to be at the top all the time.

there is also a culture of rugby as explained by ABs2011, Young NZ guys are learning basics very early and in a good way definitely but I think it makes for 5% of the difference between FR and NZ, this is not the main difference in my perspective.

I cant agree with you at all. I still think that europe as a whole has a lower player skill level than in the southern hemisphere and in particular NZ. You can argue all you like its from more games but I dont believe it for a second.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Allez Le Blue

Ah... No. 62 !

 

[OverGore]

I cant agree with you at all. I still think that europe as a whole has a lower player skill level than in the southern hemisphere and in particular NZ. You can argue all you like its from more games but I dont believe it for a second.

On one point its true. we do have very good young guys coming out around 19 - 21. But, as soon as they enter top14 and its physical rugby, they get badly injured.
I d say, 90% of young players get 1 or 2 very bad 6-9 month injury in 2-3 years , at the begining of their career.
So if we see a talent that is raw and needs to practise at high level, u can be sure he ll break one knee or neck etc.
So usually, we hire a SH meanwhile, and guy loses his place afterwards, etc etc.
Bonneval is an ok player, good typical french skills, instinct etc, pace, but guy already have a wooden knee. 1 year and half of top14 and boom, knee over.
We have more and more players ending careers before 25.

 

[KeyboardWorrier]

Allez Le Blue

Ah... No. 62 !

:lol:

 

[austingtir]

On one point its true. we do have very good young guys coming out around 19 - 21. But, as soon as they enter top14 and its physical rugby, they get badly injured.
I d say, 90% of young players get 1 or 2 very bad 6-9 month injury in 2-3 years , at the begining of their career.
So if we see a talent that is raw and needs to practise at high level, u can be sure he ll break one knee or neck etc.
So usually, we hire a SH meanwhile, and guy loses his place afterwards, etc etc.
Bonneval is an ok player, good typical french skills, instinct etc, pace, but guy already have a wooden knee. 1 year and half of top14 and boom, knee over.
We have more and more players ending careers before 25.

So you think that young players in NZ dont get injured.... ?? REALLY??

At my work some the staff there have played rugby and a few have gotten quite far up the representitive game in the waikato / bay of plenty regions (basically a step below representing Waikato or bay of plenty steamers). Most of the ones that made it and are still under 30 were cut down by serious knee injuries in particular the ones playing five eight. I worked with a guy for a short period who everyone I met that went to school with him raved about him could kick off both feet great vision and this guy was going to be the next DC etc etc got high up the waikato rep scene and bam seriously injured and that was that. His main thing he'd say to me is people that dont play now just dont realise how big the hits are now in this game and the amount of players getting injured in the tackle is untold in NZ rugby.

 

[barthelemy]

I cant agree with you at all. I still think that europe as a whole has a lower player skill level than in the southern hemisphere and in particular NZ. You can argue all you like its from more games but I dont believe it for a second.

I perfectly understand that you do not want to agree as it would mean that the competition is unfair and it would make the result of ABs against France not as good as it seems. But believe me the number of matches, the organization of each rugby and the protection of the internationals (with a low number of matches in SH) is the main reason of the failure of the french team against the ABs. There are a lot of other reasons (and training on skills is part of them, rugby culture..) but they do not account for a lot in the failure of the NH or France more specifically.

Or maybe you think that ABs are a superior race of rugbymen maybe ??

 

[Icemn]

this guy seems to agree with me... any English fans know him?

http://www.allblacks.com/News/28396/mindset-needs-to-change-up-north

- - - Updated - - -

this guy seems to agree with me... any English fans know him?

http://www.allblacks.com/News/28396/mindset-needs-to-change-up-north

 

[ncurd]

this guy seems to agree with me... any English fans know him?

http://www.allblacks.com/News/28396/mindset-needs-to-change-up-north

He taught my best man History at school other than that nope never heard of him

 

[OverGore]

So you think that young players in NZ dont get injured.... ?? REALLY??

No i dont say that at all. I say that the few good youngsters we have, have way too much pressure and dont have time to improve enough, mainly cos of early bad injuries.
Dont forget that the preseason training in France is very short, very very short. So players dont have time to improve as they should. You add an ijury on this, and when a player loses 6 month in newzealand, u can consider he loses 2 here.
So we have less young killers than you have, and added to that we dont help them or protect them enough.
Ofc all players get injuries, but i assure you that here it is a tremendous situation for the youth.
Again, i speak only of pro players, if we enter the general rugby amateur scene, yes, theres a big problem mainly hidden on injuries and bad consequences.

 

[barthelemy]

well... you only get better by playing the best

and who does arg play against on a regular basis?

the southern hemisphere teams...

add Italy to the rugby championship for a few years and see how they beat the likes on eng etc etc well maybe not... but you see where im going with this... maybe samoa, fiji and japan...

Sorry , did not see your post.

This is also true that you get better playing the best, it is obvious.

But also, Italy has a relative lower level than the likes of England or France....and they do not really improve these last years. Therefore, the theory that you improve playing better sides is not always true.

Yes it is certainly the issue somehow but we can't play much more against the southern teams seeing how much time our players have with the national team, we need first to resolve the issue of the number of matches a year and increase the focus on the national team if we want to be one day competitive enough and play more against southern teams

What is certain is that everybody in the north would like to play better and being able to beat the southern hemisphere on a regular basis. But currently, they can't due to structural and organizational issues.

 

[gamine]

A few years back we met some New Zealanders on a canal trip through France and they told us that many families don't want their boys to play rugby because they fear that they will be injured playing with islanders, who tend to be much bigger and stronger than their own children. This seems to be carried on at senior level, as there are quite a few islanders playing for NZ in this WC.

 

[ABs2011]

A few years back we met some New Zealanders on a canal trip through France and they told us that many families don't want their boys to play rugby because they fear that they will be injured playing with islanders, who tend to be much bigger and stronger than their own children. This seems to be carried on at senior level, as there are quite a few islanders playing for NZ in this WC.

I really dont think it's a race thing aye. I think its just that these days parents are way more concerned about the head injuries than ever before. We are about to have our first kid and I already know my wife wont want he/she playing rugby and to be honest as much as I love the game I'd have no problem if they dont play it. It's got nothing to do with the ethnic breakdown of NZ though - plain and simple Rugby is just a rough sport.

 

[Shaggy]

A few years back we met some New Zealanders on a canal trip through France and they told us that many families don't want their boys to play rugby because they fear that they will be injured playing with islanders, who tend to be much bigger and stronger than their own children. This seems to be carried on at senior level, as there are quite a few islanders playing for NZ in this WC.

It certainly was an issue a few years back in Auckland; Pacific Islanders seem to physically mature quicker, but I believe that there are now weight divisions that you can play your rugby in (you can't play in some divisions if you are over a particular weight), so it probably isn't an issue anymore