[2015 RWC] Quarter Final 2: New Zealand vs. France (17/10/2015)

[OverGore]

French players interviews are scary. They are all compeltely delusional. So it seems for them, that losing the second half agaisnt ireland is the reason of the elimination in quarter. Because ofc, we would have beat argentina lol.
I hope after seeing the result today they realize how far in space they are.

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French players interviews are scary. They are all compeltely delusional. So it seems for them, that losing the second half agaisnt ireland is the reason of the elimination in quarter. Because ofc, we would have beat argentina lol.
I hope after seeing the result today they realize how far in space they are.

 

[Icemn]

I dnt know if the ab were brilliant or if France were crap...

 

[barthelemy]

Here is a team that might drop one game a year and all the northern hemisphere ***** some which have never beaten the AB's can't see a top performance when they see one

ABs played their game yesterday, they put a very nice performance. But just seeing a nice performance from the ABs is making a fool of yourself. France were not themselves yesterday, I can't explain why but they did not play at all with the intensity they should have played with, they are able to play with (just remember the final in 2011, I'm sure the AB team of yesterday was not better than the one of 2011).

I'm sure that individually, french players yesterday were not worse than the 2011 players. The difference ? The passion, the want, the fighting spirit, the team spirit created by the coaching team and the payers themselves, there was no group , no cohesion yesterday, just a bunch of guys playing some tactical schemas spitting at their face since 3 months and applying them like robots, forgetting that the rugby is also the aggressivity, the fighting spirit, the WANT of the victory at the individual level.

Look at Argentina, they have the passion, they have the spirit and this is why they are winning. they are not great technicians, they play a simple game, some of their players were even playing in French second division last year but they want it so much, they fight like if it was the last day of their life. France since Saint Andre is coaching the team has totally lost his passion (it has already started before but it became even more obvious with Saint Andre).

Again, all these guys individually play with some of the best players of the world, they are good, there is no doubt about this, they have not suddenly forgot how to do a pass or tackle properly, they just do not have the motivation to play for this french team because the coaching team and the federation has not succeded in creating the right environment for players to enjoy rugby, to have fun and to want to wear the shirt.

This became hurtingly obvious yesterday and also against the irish, we just did not fight back. As I said, the only moment where we fought yesterday was when they came back for the second half, some players like Dussautoir must have shouted at them and finally we have seen frenchies able to progress and to create intervals for Fofana to go for it for example. something we have not seen AT ALL from the start of this tournament.

I'm Sorry if I'm not just praising the ABs performance, I think it was meaningless from my perspective, they played against ghosts that were not even concerned by what was happening on the pitch, by the fact that they were playing a quarter final of RWC, they looked like a team in hurry to finish their campaign and go home. Surely, AB supporters must be extremely happy, their team has finally killed the legend of the french beating the ABs at the world cup knock-Out and I understand. But if I was an AB supporter, I would not fool myself with the 60 points.

 

[Larksea]

I thought the french actually looked pretty good at times and definitely put some pressure on the ABs in that first half. And in a game like that the ABs would have felt like they should have had a much bigger advantage at half time and that they still had work to do. But they did eventually give way to the intensity and cohesion of the All Blacks. With Both Nonu and Carter firing in tandem gaps appeared all over the place.

Was good to see carter fire. Ive been saying all along he has been holding back and he has a genuine running game there waiting when he needs to use it. That gap run then sick backhand offload in traffic when he had attracted the attention of ~4 defenders to setup one of Saveas(?) tries was pure vintage stuff and surely one of the plays of the whole tournament so far. Actually a number of the trys were pretty special and at a level any team in the world would have struggled to defend.

carter looked to have a bit of a ****le for the last 1/4 of the game hopefully nothing too serious.

Savea obviously had a big influence in the game I still feel hes off his best but heck hes still go some power and he put that to good use. Most pleasing thing for me was that he was more focused and maintaining possession in contact, he has been losing a lot of ball in contact recently. We did still get a glimpse of his weaknesses with that ball that was kicked behind him in the first half he was too relaxed with it and allowed the french to attack it before it went over the sideline. Hopefully he will learn from that. In finals footy you HAVE to play ball like that you cant just lax on it and hope it goes over the line.

Skudder well man I really liked his this game. A lot has been said about his step in this WC but I think that's the first time he have seen the step he is really known for. Again for me the most pleasing aspect was that his tacking looked better. A few times he bought down some of those big french forwards by getting right in at their ankles. Was good to see because his tackling has been a bit of an issue. His tackle completion rate was something like 55% before this game so definitely a work on. Hope hes ok because so far its been no competition with Naholo. Skudder is our clear best option at 14.

Ben Smith was very Ben Smith like in his performance, best 15 in the world. I think it was a mistake to move him to 14. Even if Barrett has more experience at 15 I think we all know now just how good Ben is at 15 better to leave him there and have Barrett or SBW fill the gap at 14. That high ball work of his, his running game and intensity in contact all trade make Ben Smith. I think hes been playing well the whole time this game is really about the rest of the team lifting their effort to match him. That epic 1 on 1 high ball take that resulted in a try a few phases later was pretty darn special... Vintage Ben Smith.

Better game from conrad Smith. Much more like we have grown to expect of him, not a standout game but the sort of game we need from him now with just two games left in his test career. He needs to lift again against that springbok midfield who will be eager to test him.

Nonu well I knew he had a big game in him and I was hoping he would save it for a potential clash with Australia. Crazy he fluffed that try on full time that would have been epic. All he needed to do was use TWO HANDS! Arg! Also made some really nice tackles not particularly hard or physical just accurate low tackles that bring guys to the floor quickly.

Aaron Smith good team effort from him, rather than anything brilliant he just did his job well. One really superb play to clean up a loose ball out numbered when Barrett seemed a bit out of position.

Read still prone to the odd basic mistake but in general hes working his arse off and hes been epic at line out time.

Kaino best performance this WC from him. he knocked the french forwards around a bit early in the game and kept that physicality up. He looked a bit drained at times it was a good idea to drag him off and set Sam Cane loose. Hopefully more to come from kaino. Traditionally hes been a really important player against SA & AU.

McCaw typical performance, at the cutting edge of everything really, tackles everywhere and buried in most rucks trying to get in the way and slow things down while trying to be legal. Got lucky with "that incident" after he did go in the side and collapse a drive, the picamoles brain explosion kinda saved him. If not for that the ABs/McCaw would have probably got a warning at least.

Retalick - absolutely immense, around the park, lineout, pressuring kickers, rucks he's everywhere. I used to say early in his career that having Retalick on the park is almost like having an extra player on the park because his workrate is just so staggering. Hes struggled a bit this year between injuries but this performance was very much like Retalick in his prime again. I dont think we can understate just how much a performance like that means right now. So important with just a couple of must win games left.

Sam Whitelick - I think hes been one of the AB's most consistent performers this WC, like Retalick & McCaw he's just everywhere.

Franks - solid game, not much to do at scrum time. Was solid in defence and covers ground well.

Coles - One of his best matches IMO. If you focus on him you see just how much work he does, he's everywhere and so mobile. Much more mobile than pretty much all other hookers going right now. His lineout throwing is right on point as well. Tough job when it seems like the AB's do use different options. Lineout ball does get spread around the jumpers.

Moody - have to talk about moody here because he came on early and basically stole the show as much as a loosehead prop can. As I and may others have said our squad is actually stronger with moody in for Woodcock who hasn't quite carried his superb career into this year.

Barrett - was solid, caught out of position once but still pretty good overall. he didn't really get a chance to come in and make play because Carter was doing so well. Generally did his job.

SBW - Another massive hit out off the bench, created a lot of chances

Sam Cane - I thought he was totally epic off the bench. He was all over the french at the rucks and won turnovers. He ran the ball well. I know this is premature but I think having Cane in this sort of form and well rested going into a game against Australia could be an ace up the sleve for the AB's hooper & Pocock have been worked a lot. Having A guy like cane fresh with a full tank could be really important in a role he's become very good at.

Charlie faumuina - did provide some punch off the bench but I do have concerns. This may be nit picking bit towards the end of the game he looked like he was running through concrete with Red Bands on. he was desperately slow to get back on defense often the last player by a long way to get back in line and the french did get around him a couple of times late in the game. It didn't matter because we were well ahead but I wonder if Ben franks may be a smarter option... Ben doesn't have the size or impact Charlie has but hes just so strong at fit, very quick and has shown the ability to plug holes and make cover tackles most props would struggle with.

I know Savea was man of the match, 3 tries is epic and he deserved it but its such a shame for it not to be awarded to a forward in a game like this. Retalick, Coles, Moody, Kaino IMO those guys set the platform for this win that allowed Carter, Nonu & Savea to shine.

IMO this doesn't bury '99 & '07 nothing will they will always be there its written in history. Next time we meat France in a final they will be a main talking point again.

Its just good that '15 wasn't added to the list

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I thought the french actually looked pretty good at times and definitely put some pressure on the ABs in that first half. And in a game like that the ABs would have felt like they should have had a much bigger advantage at half time and that they still had work to do. But they did eventually give way to the intensity and cohesion of the All Blacks. With Both Nonu and Carter firing in tandem gaps appeared all over the place.

Was good to see carter fire. Ive been saying all along he has been holding back and he has a genuine running game there waiting when he needs to use it. That gap run then sick backhand offload in traffic when he had attracted the attention of ~4 defenders to setup one of Saveas(?) tries was pure vintage stuff and surely one of the plays of the whole tournament so far. Actually a number of the trys were pretty special and at a level any team in the world would have struggled to defend.

carter looked to have a bit of a ****le for the last 1/4 of the game hopefully nothing too serious.

Savea obviously had a big influence in the game I still feel hes off his best but heck hes still go some power and he put that to good use. Most pleasing thing for me was that he was more focused and maintaining possession in contact, he has been losing a lot of ball in contact recently. We did still get a glimpse of his weaknesses with that ball that was kicked behind him in the first half he was too relaxed with it and allowed the french to attack it before it went over the sideline. Hopefully he will learn from that. In finals footy you HAVE to play ball like that you cant just lax on it and hope it goes over the line.

Skudder well man I really liked his this game. A lot has been said about his step in this WC but I think that's the first time he have seen the step he is really known for. Again for me the most pleasing aspect was that his tacking looked better. A few times he bought down some of those big french forwards by getting right in at their ankles. Was good to see because his tackling has been a bit of an issue. His tackle completion rate was something like 55% before this game so definitely a work on. Hope hes ok because so far its been no competition with Naholo. Skudder is our clear best option at 14.

Ben Smith was very Ben Smith like in his performance, best 15 in the world. I think it was a mistake to move him to 14. Even if Barrett has more experience at 15 I think we all know now just how good Ben is at 15 better to leave him there and have Barrett or SBW fill the gap at 14. That high ball work of his, his running game and intensity in contact all trade make Ben Smith. I think hes been playing well the whole time this game is really about the rest of the team lifting their effort to match him. That epic 1 on 1 high ball take that resulted in a try a few phases later was pretty darn special... Vintage Ben Smith.

Better game from conrad Smith. Much more like we have grown to expect of him, not a standout game but the sort of game we need from him now with just two games left in his test career. He needs to lift again against that springbok midfield who will be eager to test him.

Nonu well I knew he had a big game in him and I was hoping he would save it for a potential clash with Australia. Crazy he fluffed that try on full time that would have been epic. All he needed to do was use TWO HANDS! Arg! Also made some really nice tackles not particularly hard or physical just accurate low tackles that bring guys to the floor quickly.

Aaron Smith good team effort from him, rather than anything brilliant he just did his job well. One really superb play to clean up a loose ball out numbered when Barrett seemed a bit out of position.

Read still prone to the odd basic mistake but in general hes working his arse off and hes been epic at line out time.

Kaino best performance this WC from him. he knocked the french forwards around a bit early in the game and kept that physicality up. He looked a bit drained at times it was a good idea to drag him off and set Sam Cane loose. Hopefully more to come from kaino. Traditionally hes been a really important player against SA & AU.

McCaw typical performance, at the cutting edge of everything really, tackles everywhere and buried in most rucks trying to get in the way and slow things down while trying to be legal. Got lucky with "that incident" after he did go in the side and collapse a drive, the picamoles brain explosion kinda saved him. If not for that the ABs/McCaw would have probably got a warning at least.

Retalick - absolutely immense, around the park, lineout, pressuring kickers, rucks he's everywhere. I used to say early in his career that having Retalick on the park is almost like having an extra player on the park because his workrate is just so staggering. Hes struggled a bit this year between injuries but this performance was very much like Retalick in his prime again. I dont think we can understate just how much a performance like that means right now. So important with just a couple of must win games left.

Sam Whitelick - I think hes been one of the AB's most consistent performers this WC, like Retalick & McCaw he's just everywhere.

Franks - solid game, not much to do at scrum time. Was solid in defence and covers ground well.

Coles - One of his best matches IMO. If you focus on him you see just how much work he does, he's everywhere and so mobile. Much more mobile than pretty much all other hookers going right now. His lineout throwing is right on point as well. Tough job when it seems like the AB's do use different options. Lineout ball does get spread around the jumpers.

Moody - have to talk about moody here because he came on early and basically stole the show as much as a loosehead prop can. As I and may others have said our squad is actually stronger with moody in for Woodcock who hasn't quite carried his superb career into this year.

Barrett - was solid, caught out of position once but still pretty good overall. he didn't really get a chance to come in and make play because Carter was doing so well. Generally did his job.

SBW - Another massive hit out off the bench, created a lot of chances

Sam Cane - I thought he was totally epic off the bench. He was all over the french at the rucks and won turnovers. He ran the ball well. I know this is premature but I think having Cane in this sort of form and well rested going into a game against Australia could be an ace up the sleve for the AB's hooper & Pocock have been worked a lot. Having A guy like cane fresh with a full tank could be really important in a role he's become very good at.

Charlie faumuina - did provide some punch off the bench but I do have concerns. This may be nit picking bit towards the end of the game he looked like he was running through concrete with Red Bands on. he was desperately slow to get back on defense often the last player by a long way to get back in line and the french did get around him a couple of times late in the game. It didn't matter because we were well ahead but I wonder if Ben franks may be a smarter option... Ben doesn't have the size or impact Charlie has but hes just so strong at fit, very quick and has shown the ability to plug holes and make cover tackles most props would struggle with.

I know Savea was man of the match, 3 tries is epic and he deserved it but its such a shame for it not to be awarded to a forward in a game like this. Retalick, Coles, Moody, Kaino IMO those guys set the platform for this win that allowed Carter, Nonu & Savea to shine.

IMO this doesn't bury '99 & '07 nothing will they will always be there its written in history. Next time we meat France in a final they will be a main talking point again.

Its just good that '15 wasn't added to the list

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Forgot to mention that mealamu has looked really good off the bench as well

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Forgot to mention that mealamu has looked really good off the bench as well

 

[austingtir]

I dont think Mccaw's getting enough credit for this victory when I was watching this game his breakdown work as a whole was just incredible imo. He practically singlehandedly at times stopped the french from stealing any ball whatsoever, seemed like he was at every ruck knocking guys out or protecting the ball. It was honestly one of his more memorable performances for me just one of those games where he seemed to know where the ball would be before it got there.

 

[otapouri]

ABs played their game yesterday, they put a very nice performance. But just seeing a nice performance from the ABs is making a fool of yourself. France were not themselves yesterday, I can't explain why but they did not play at all with the intensity they should have played with, they are able to play with (just remember the final in 2011, I'm sure the AB team of yesterday was not better than the one of 2011).

I'm sure that individually, french players yesterday were not worse than the 2011 players. The difference ? The passion, the want, the fighting spirit, the team spirit created by the coaching team and the payers themselves, there was no group , no cohesion yesterday, just a bunch of guys playing some tactical schemas spitting at their face since 3 months and applying them like robots, forgetting that the rugby is also the aggressivity, the fighting spirit, the WANT of the victory at the individual level.

Look at Argentina, they have the passion, they have the spirit and this is why they are winning. they are not great technicians, they play a simple game, some of their players were even playing in French second division last year but they want it so much, they fight like if it was the last day of their life. France since Saint Andre is coaching the team has totally lost his passion (it has already started before but it became even more obvious with Saint Andre).

Again, all these guys individually play with some of the best players of the world, they are good, there is no doubt about this, they have not suddenly forgot how to do a pass or tackle properly, they just do not have the motivation to play for this french team because the coaching team and the federation has not succeded in creating the right environment for players to enjoy rugby, to have fun and to want to wear the shirt.

This became hurtingly obvious yesterday and also against the irish, we just did not fight back. As I said, the only moment where we fought yesterday was when they came back for the second half, some players like Dussautoir must have shouted at them and finally we have seen frenchies able to progress and to create intervals for Fofana to go for it for example. something we have not seen AT ALL from the start of this tournament.

I'm Sorry if I'm not just praising the ABs performance, I think it was meaningless from my perspective, they played against ghosts that were not even concerned by what was happening on the pitch, by the fact that they were playing a quarter final of RWC, they looked like a team in hurry to finish their campaign and go home. Surely, AB supporters must be extremely happy, their team has finally killed the legend of the french beating the ABs at the world cup knock-Out and I understand. But if I was an AB supporter, I would not fool myself with the 60 points.

We are not fooled by the 60 points either the last 20 should not have happened . The point being that the AB's have been bagged for their pool play performances but any other team could had defeats; with a humorous twist the argies could meet the AB's in the final. Now who is in the pool of death.

 

[austingtir]

ABs played their game yesterday, they put a very nice performance. But just seeing a nice performance from the ABs is making a fool of yourself. France were not themselves yesterday, I can't explain why but they did not play at all with the intensity they should have played with, they are able to play with (just remember the final in 2011, I'm sure the AB team of yesterday was not better than the one of 2011).

I'm sure that individually, french players yesterday were not worse than the 2011 players. The difference ? The passion, the want, the fighting spirit, the team spirit created by the coaching team and the payers themselves, there was no group , no cohesion yesterday, just a bunch of guys playing some tactical schemas spitting at their face since 3 months and applying them like robots, forgetting that the rugby is also the aggressivity, the fighting spirit, the WANT of the victory at the individual level.

Look at Argentina, they have the passion, they have the spirit and this is why they are winning. they are not great technicians, they play a simple game, some of their players were even playing in French second division last year but they want it so much, they fight like if it was the last day of their life. France since Saint Andre is coaching the team has totally lost his passion (it has already started before but it became even more obvious with Saint Andre).

Again, all these guys individually play with some of the best players of the world, they are good, there is no doubt about this, they have not suddenly forgot how to do a pass or tackle properly, they just do not have the motivation to play for this french team because the coaching team and the federation has not succeded in creating the right environment for players to enjoy rugby, to have fun and to want to wear the shirt.

This became hurtingly obvious yesterday and also against the irish, we just did not fight back. As I said, the only moment where we fought yesterday was when they came back for the second half, some players like Dussautoir must have shouted at them and finally we have seen frenchies able to progress and to create intervals for Fofana to go for it for example. something we have not seen AT ALL from the start of this tournament.

I'm Sorry if I'm not just praising the ABs performance, I think it was meaningless from my perspective, they played against ghosts that were not even concerned by what was happening on the pitch, by the fact that they were playing a quarter final of RWC, they looked like a team in hurry to finish their campaign and go home. Surely, AB supporters must be extremely happy, their team has finally killed the legend of the french beating the ABs at the world cup knock-Out and I understand. But if I was an AB supporter, I would not fool myself with the 60 points.

I get where your coming from but in all honestly I find this post as blind as the french players themselves.

In the lead up to this match I watched highlights of the majority of the french backline on youtube. The majority of this appeared to be from the top14. Lets just say what I saw did not fill me with fear in any shape or form. The french competition your players are playing in is ****. France as a whole has nobody to blame for this performance than themselves and I honestly believe its a direct result of hiring in old has beens and even some good players from other countrys into your competitions.

If anybody on here is wondering how the French missed so many tackles go and watch highlights of these french backline players. Now obviously it doesnt show them missing tackles it shows them beating them but the standard of rugby I saw is honestly schoolboy stuff over here in NZ. The fact of the matter is these french players are playing in inferior competitions day in day out. And that goes for the whole of europe for that matter not just France!

I expect this to pull all the usual european trolls out of the woodwork on here. But instead of slinging mud I suggest you lot prove me wrong!

 

[otapouri]

I get where your coming from but in all honestly I find this post as blind as the french players themselves.

In the lead up to this match I watched highlights of the majority of the french backline on youtube. The majority of this appeared to be from the top14. Lets just say what I saw did not fill me with fear in any shape or form. The french competition your players are playing in is ****. France as a whole has nobody to blame for this performance than themselves and I honestly believe its a direct result of hiring in old has beens and even some good players from other countrys into your competitions.

If anybody on here is wondering how the French missed so many tackles go and watch highlights of these french backline players. Now obviously it doesnt show them missing tackles it shows them beating them but the standard of rugby I saw is honestly schoolboy stuff over here in NZ. The fact of the matter is these french players are playing in inferior competitions day in day out. And that goes for the whole of europe for that matter not just France!

I expect this to pull all the usual european trolls out of the woodwork on here. But instead of slinging mud I suggest you lot prove me wrong!

Amen[emoji12]

 

[Icemn]

I get where your coming from but in all honestly I find this post as blind as the french players themselves.

In the lead up to this match I watched highlights of the majority of the french backline on youtube. The majority of this appeared to be from the top14. Lets just say what I saw did not fill me with fear in any shape or form. The french competition your players are playing in is ****. France as a whole has nobody to blame for this performance than themselves and I honestly believe its a direct result of hiring in old has beens and even some good players from other countrys into your competitions.

If anybody on here is wondering how the French missed so many tackles go and watch highlights of these french backline players. Now obviously it doesnt show them missing tackles it shows them beating them but the standard of rugby I saw is honestly schoolboy stuff over here in NZ. The fact of the matter is these french players are playing in inferior competitions day in day out. And that goes for the whole of europe for that matter not just France!

I expect this to pull all the usual european trolls out of the woodwork on here. But instead of slinging mud I suggest you lot prove me wrong!

i think its the same issue with the England National FOOTBALL team. The BPL are full of foreign players (because of the money) so the local English boys wont get exposure to the Premier League.

The same with the french rugby league, its about the money, look at the amount of foreign players in that league... french rugby has lost its identity... the ARG play like the french used to...

maybe its cuz they not allowed to smoke and drink in the dressing rooms anymore :?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The ABs were excellent, but let's not forget that England managed to stick 55 points on France in the 6N. This is a very poor French team and it sounds like there was a load of disharmony in the camp too. They do like a good revolution, the French.

If the ABs beat the Boks they'll win the whole thing, but that's far from certain. One thing's for sure, the Boks won't try and beat them at their own game. The ABs will know what's coming, but stopping it's a different matter. I think they will but it could be close.

 

[barthelemy]

I get where your coming from but in all honestly I find this post as blind as the french players themselves.

In the lead up to this match I watched highlights of the majority of the french backline on youtube. The majority of this appeared to be from the top14. Lets just say what I saw did not fill me with fear in any shape or form. The french competition your players are playing in is ****. France as a whole has nobody to blame for this performance than themselves and I honestly believe its a direct result of hiring in old has beens and even some good players from other countrys into your competitions.

If anybody on here is wondering how the French missed so many tackles go and watch highlights of these french backline players. Now obviously it doesnt show them missing tackles it shows them beating them but the standard of rugby I saw is honestly schoolboy stuff over here in NZ. The fact of the matter is these french players are playing in inferior competitions day in day out. And that goes for the whole of europe for that matter not just France!

I expect this to pull all the usual european trolls out of the woodwork on here. But instead of slinging mud I suggest you lot prove me wrong!

Easy to prove you wrong : how do you explain that Argentina is so good in this RWC and in previous ones ? Maybe you do not know it but most of the argentinan players are playing in this ****ty championship and other european championships, even some were playing in french second division not so long ago. Already half of your ****ty championship theory is going down the hill.

also, French clubs are winning quite often the heineken cup..Toulouse, toulon, Clermont are competitive clubs in Europe.

It is not because you have read the crap of Graham Henry (who must be still angry after 2007) that suddenly it becomes the truth.

Also, I'm not sure at all that any of the super rugby team would be able to compete with Toulon or Clermont Ferrand..Sad we can't see some matched between these sides, that would tell a bit more.

However, yes there is defo some structural disadvantages for the french players who play in the top 14 compare to players who play in super rugby.

I think it is important to have your facts right and knowing your subject before starting any conversation about these matters and being cocky :

1) 14 team french championship involved at least 26 matches over the season (+ Semi final and finals for the finalist of the championship) . So french players playing in the best french teams can play already 28 matches just for the championship. If you add to this 6 to 8 matches of European cup, we are around 35 matches. If you add to this international matches, we can reach more than 40 matches in the season for some players. No Southern hemisphere players can tell that they are playing 40 matches in the season. I think I have seen the numbers and we are around 30, max 35 matches for the best international players in Southern hemisphere. Yes we are talking about 1 to 2 months less of matches for southern rugby players that are playing in southern hemisphere.

The result of this fact is that you can't play with the same intensity 40 matches that you are playing 30 or 35 matches. Rugby is highly demanding and having some rest for your body is really important and make a huge difference, even in terms of training times. You have 1 or 2 months more to train yourself on some specifics for example.

No wonder why Frenchies always take slap in their face in the summer June tour, they are just burned after an extremely long season. and quite often , coach are calling in young players as half of the players are burnt or injured.

2) There is no relegated team in super rugby, there is no second division. Every team is sure to be there the next year. There is in France, you have to win, not body build yourself (no time for this), have the nicest haircut possible or playing nice and cute games, as you do not want to go down in second division, it is a very important financial loss if it is happening

3) I do not know how much the national team of NZ is playing together along the year, how much time they meet but I guess it is not far from 6 months a year (out of RWC years obviously). the french team, it is between 3 and 4 months if you include 6th nations, summer and automn tour. there is also here a huge disadvantage.

4) The fact to have rich clubs is also a big disadvantage for the French national team. the french federation is poor, really poor, it has 40% less budget than the english federation (the fact that the english federation owns Twickenham is making hte different in terms of profit). the french players do not have any contract with their federation, only clubs are paying them so clubs does what they want and they let their players as little as possible training with teh french team. the NZ rugby is organized around the national federation and the province system is built to feed the national team.

5) Even in the northern hemisphere, France is at disadvantage with british and irish countries. already, these countries have 12 team championship and no semi and finals. It is already at least 1 month less to play for the club or province. also , Ireland and Wales success is easily explainable by the fact that they have a system of provinces that is made to feed the national team. This explains the relative success of these countries as they have a better national organization than France or even England. What are the clubs interest to change what is working quite well for them if they are making money enough through TV rights and sponsorship ?? At least we have people in our stadium (I think the average of people coming to the stadium at Toulon for example is 20k, No super rugby team bring so muhc people in their stadium I believe where you could hear a moses fly )


6) I will still support one of your point about learning the basics right and I think effectively that the formation in France is a bit light for the young players on some aspect of the game. It is something that France is aware of and it needs to be worked on.

I have read people taht laugh about Savea not being tackled properly and suddenly make big conclusion on the french rugby not teaching to tackle properly. what loads of crap !!! on saturday evening, it was just individual mistakes, it happens but make some conclusion about the french rugby, it is just laughable...


7) I will support another point as well. I think the northern hemisphere rugby has to change, we can't just play so slowly anymore, scrums should have lesser importance, play time during matches should be higher, there is defo some improvements to make at several level if we want to become competitive again

8) The French championship has defo a sort of premier league football syndrom, I'm not hiding this and it needs to evolve if it wants to stay competitive. Strangely, I think this is good that Graham Henry tells some craps as it means that the idea will become that the french championship is crap and that big players from the south won't come anymore and it will push french clubs to evolve and to change to become attractive again.


9) We compensate all these disadvantages by having a quite big stock of players as France is bigger than NZ in terms of license rugby players for example.


Despite all these, we still are quite competitive. France is the country who has played the most matches of RWC just after the blacks. If you put in perspective all my points above, this is not such bad results.

At the end, it is true, this is a french problem and you NZ do not have to care. However, I think it still good to be aware of all these facts before criticizing our championship, it is important to compare what is comparable.

If your players were all starting suddenly to play in our championship, I think you would see quickly the difference in intensity they would be able to give to the national team.

Again, what we have deeply missed on this RWC is mainly the passion, the fighting spirit as I explained, it could have compensate for a part our disadvantages. And this passion should be provided by some leaders and by the coaching team. Sadly it has not happened at all on this RWC, it has been a mistake to have Saint Andre during 4 years, he was not the right guy sadly. but to his credit , he is also prisonner of the french situation.

Anyway. Bravo NZ, you have deserved largely your victory and I wish you the best of luck for the semis, I will be behind you like I have always been when France is not involved

 

[OverGore]

Again, what we have deeply missed on this RWC is mainly the passion, the fighting spirit as I explained, it could have compensate for a part our disadvantages. And this passion should be provided by some leaders and by the coaching team. Sadly it has not happened at all on this RWC, it has been a mistake to have Saint Andre during 4 years, he was not the right guy sadly. but to his credit , he is also prisonner of the french situation.

Honestly, we miss a lot more. All teams have passion or fighting spirit, but we mostly lacked of skills.
Seeing Dulin erased as if he wasnt even on the field on the second orthird try, on a 3vs 3 defense...his move to block inside was so childish indeed.

I understand why neozeds says it s -18yo level in their country. It is. Itm cup is more enjoyable and more intersting than top14, it s a fact.
On every basis of formation we are wrong. We keep building pillars that cant make anything but scrums for example. The rugby we teach to kids is wrong and based on contact, not avoiding it...Imagine we had Sella.
We made top14 a ultraphysical championship, but one of the slowest too.
Speed is so importznt, and we dont even insist on that.
We were in Tignes doing pushups when neo zeds were repeating over and over combinations. We have it all wrong .
The diagnostic made by neozeds is the good one, and they are 100% right. Not only we not pro physically, but even mentally we lack of everything.
Nothing we cant change by a french miracle lol.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The French were extremely disappointing.
France has a history of playing with passion, with flair, and with intuition.
This coaching team has not helped French rugby, they have driven it backwards.

 

[barthelemy]

Honestly, we miss a lot more. All teams have passion or fighting spirit, but we mostly lacked of skills.
Seeing Dulin erased as if he wasnt even on the field on the second orthird try, on a 3vs 3 defense...his move to block inside was so childish indeed.

I understand why neozeds says it s -18yo level in their country. It is. Itm cup is more enjoyable and more intersting than top14, it s a fact.
On every basis of formation we are wrong. We keep building pillars that cant make anything but scrums for example. The rugby we teach to kids is wrong and based on contact, not avoiding it...Imagine we had Sella.
We made top14 a ultraphysical championship, but one of the slowest too.
Speed is so importznt, and we dont even insist on that.
We were in Tignes doing pushups when neo zeds were repeating over and over combinations. We have it all wrong .
The diagnostic made by neozeds is the good one, and they are 100% right. Not only we not pro physically, but even mentally we lack of everything.
Nothing we cant change by a french miracle lol.

It is a perspective with which I do not agree. We did not become suddenly all crap. Ok on this specific preparation, maybe it was wrong and this is due to coaching. We have always been to Tignes doing push up and in 2011 we end up in final. so lets not just trash everything.

As I said yes we do not have the same culture of Rugby that in the south and yes we have some chronic issues of organization..but we play rugby since as long as them. Our rugby is maybe less cute to watch, less charming but still it brings a lot of people together every weekend and it fills a lot of stadiums.

The french players have no suddenly lost all their skills and abilities, I do not agree with this. Everybody talk about Dulin or Naikatici not being able to tackle, this is load of crap. milner skulder, Savea or Nonu, if they found themselves on the backfoot all along a match against a team and players that are arriving full speed on them, they will do exactly the same as dulin and Naikatici : Miss their tackles and lose matches. teh issue is how we found ourselves in this situation at first place of having to tackle guys arriving at full speed on us. Everybody praises MNS or Savea, they are good rugby players, they have a nice haircut (lol) but if you stop them to have balls and if you put them on their backfoot, they won't be able to do anything, they will just fail like the french team did. this is not a tackling or skill problems, this is a aggresivity, a fighting spirit issue..Again, the best example are the argentinan, they have the grinta, they have the passion, every meter you win against them is a proper fight, this is where france has lost on saturday, not on the so called wonder of guys like Savea or MNS. It is about determination and again, as I explained, the few minutes where we have seen a tiny bit of determination like 5 minutes in the first half when Picamoles has scored his try and maybe 5 minutes in the second half where we were finally advancing and Fofana had some breakthrough confirms my point.

We can discuss about the formation of the young and I have talked about it but all this is down to the place of rugby we want in the country. For NZ, the rugby union is almost everything, this is the pride of a nation, it is almost like an army getting trained for this, all their organization is made to feed the national team, all the focus is on this. We have to admit we can't compete to this sort of focus. because there is a lot of other sports in France (I won;t repeat again but we have been world champion of a lot of other sports, Rugby is just a tiny part of the sports we are playing at)


We can improve some stuff, the formation of the young players, we can improve our country organization and we can hope to have some strong characters that will come in power to the french federation and some strong coach who will have a plan and also some better generation of players but we won't never be able to compete on a full year scale with NZ or even another SH team. If one day we do, that would mean that there are no clubs anymore in France, that we have built a system of provinces, that everybody work towards the national team. Lets be a bit realistic here, it won't never happen, we can just improve on the side and hoping to have some miracles happening.

I'm not saying that we are disagreeing finally, effectively on Saturday, I think it was mental, French players were not ready to go to bring the fight to these ABs. The frenchies were ready physically and technically, I have no doubt about this, they have been prepared for the last 3 months for this, they just did not go for it, it was fully mental. OK NZ players are maybe a bit more skillfull due mainly to the fact that they are playing almost twice more together than the french do during a year but if you stop them to play, if you bring the fight to them, if you put doubt in their mind (and that was easy because we did it in the past), you can beat them.

Some interesting stuff to read about this is the comments of the french guys of the 99 semi. they said the blacks got scared of them suddenly, they saw it in their eyes, they saw the change of the french players mental in the second half, they felt the intensity that the french were putting in every contact they had. this is what we have missed on Saturday. I do not think it was specifically a matter of skills in 99, it was a matter of determination and belief. when Dominici has this rebound, just before you tell yourself that he won't never have the ball, he won't never catch it..he does catch it, you create your own luck by the will and the determination.

All this determination and mental should be brought by the coaching team and some leaders in the group who should find the words to create the spark. We had a mental preparator, what a joke ! this is the failure of the coaching team this matter.

Sorry, I'm going everywhere, again, I do not want to disrespect our ABs friends, you have a wonderful and skillful team, I'm just very disapointed at this french team and the way we have let you play, we knew how you play, there was no surprise and we knew what we needed to do to put doubt in your mind but we did not do it sadly.

 

[ABs2011]

@barthelemy[FONT=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]
Perhaps you touch on what might be one of the most pertinent points with regard to player performance when you discuss player workloads which ultimately comes down to who employs the players. In NZ all players are contracted to the NZRU. This means that ultimatley their work loads are tailored to suit our international team. Hence why DC for example doesnt play much Super Rugby and has pretty much played zero ITM cup in the last 4 years. One could argue that as a result he and many other AB players are in peak condition for the RWC and we have very few injury concerns. On the other hand, and correct me if I am wrong, but the French players, and many others around the world are employed by both their club and their national union. This creates a conflict of interest and ultimately disadvantages the national team. Something to think about for the NH moving forward, but I fear it is too late to do anything about this!

 

[barthelemy]

@barthelemy
Perhaps you touch on what might be one of the most pertinent points with regard to player performance when you discuss player workloads which ultimately comes down to who employs the players. In NZ all players are contracted to the NZRU. This means that ultimatley their work loads are tailored to suit our international team. Hence why DC for example doesnt play much Super Rugby and has pretty much played zero ITM cup in the last 4 years. One could argue that as a result he and many other AB players are in peak condition for the RWC and we have very few injury concerns. On the other hand, and correct me if I am wrong, but the French players, and many others around the world are employed by both their club and their national union. This creates a conflict of interest and ultimately disadvantages the national team. Something to think about for the NH moving forward, but I fear it is too late to do anything about this!

Thanks, somebody who understands finally. This is exactly the point I'm making. Carter is an extreme example of a protected player. He is just here to play for the national team almost, he is prepared mainly for this.

This is even worse than what you imagine in France : Players of the national team have NO CONTRACT at all with the federation, nothing, nada. the federation is fully hancuffed with what the clubs are deciding. And as they are paying the players, they do not care about the national team, as simple as that. Coach and Club owners are regurlarly criticising the federation in the medias becasue they are not happy to give their players to the french team.

I'm explaining this because I think very few people in the southern hemisphere know how the NH works about this. This is an unfair international competition for NH teams, even more for France where players are playing almost 40 matches a year. I remember having seen some numbers about Dussautoir, this guy was playing over 40 matches of rugby for some years...In comparison, Carter must have played what ??..20 matches a year in the last 4 years. You can't put the same intensity on a match of rugby when you have such difference, impossible. Everything is impacted : the preparation time, the injuries, training on specific etc etc.

I'm not complaining, this is like this and as you said, it won't change soon as clubs in France are becoming richer and richer. the only thing that could happen is that I'm becoming Billionaire tomorrow and I put all my fortune in the french federation and I'm competing with Club salaries to contract all the french international players

And still despite all these advantages, we sometimes beat you (sometimes only ) . And as a big fan of this french team, this is highly frustrating to know that nothing will change at least for the next 10 years. We just hope for a miracle, a strong coach, a strong head of federation, some nice club owners who wants to help a bit more and finally a good generation of player to finally maybe one day, with a bit of luck, snatch a RWC.

And I hear a lot of critics on the crappy game of the top14, slow, lots of scrums etc etc . but all this is as well the result of players playing an insane number of match, you can't play at the same speed than a guy who has 2 or 3 more month of rest during the year.

 

[ABs2011]

All very interesting, and certainly something the NH and perhaps France in particular need to sort out. But the reality is you guys have made your own bed an the NZRU has fought very hard, and been criticsed a lot for their attempts at protecting the national interests.

I hear what you are saying in terms of it not being fair, but to be honest it is all fair, its just that some countries have done a better job managing things off field than others. It isn't our fault that some countries have managed the transition to pro-rugby better than others!

Anyway, the point really is that this is one thing that the North needs to figure out, cause as you say, they will struggle if they continue on the same path.

That being said, I think it is only a matter of time before money talks in NZ too. The NZRU has done all it can to protect their national interests, but the strategies and rules they employ have to be continually changing. The reason things work in NZ at this stage is that they bank on players chosing country over money, or at least being able to find a happy medium. But the money side will just get bigger and bigger, while they appeal of playing for your country arguably stays relatively constant. With that in mind finding the middle ground that keeps the National interest at the forefront gets harder and harder to find!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'm explaining this because I think very few people in the southern hemisphere know how the NH works about this. This is an unfair international competition for NH teams, even more for France where players are playing almost 40 matches a year.

I see what you mean but that's a bit of a stretch. All of the Argentine players who play away play in NH teams. I just checked and SA has 11 of their players playing in the NH.

What you describe is quite similar to what big football teams are complaining about (they pay football players salary, then they get called to play for the national team, play a friendly/inconsequential game, get injured and then can't play for the club in a Champions league game). Once the incentives from the club and the country's federation aren't aligned, it is very, very hard to correct.

I like the way NZ does it, but i don't think their system can be replicated in most places.

 

[OverGore]

It is a perspective with which I do not agree. We did not become suddenly all crap. Ok on this specific preparation, maybe it was wrong and this is due to coaching. We have always been to Tignes doing push up and in 2011 we end up in final. so lets not just trash everything.

The final in 2011 was a miracle. The situation was the same. We got beaten by Tonga in a ridiculous game, and qualified in quarter only thx to the loss of canado vs tonga. Wich was already a warning.
I really dont like Saint Andre, never did, never will, but you cant blame so much on him.
The fact is that we have a lame generation of players, very few have international level.
The new youngsters are intersting, but wont live long if they have to endure the rythm of top14 during 2-3 years.
It is almost impossible for a french coach to anticipate a team, 99% of player can be subject to a bad injury every week end. Top14 is ofc way too long, takes too much energy.
Only the preparation of the season in SH is at least twice longer. U can do physical, but also work on combinations, technique etc. Top 14 doesnt offer this. Preparation is mostly physical, cos its only about 4-5 weeks.
On this i agree with you of course.
But i insist, technically, one can see the gap between young players already, just watch the Youth WC. We get blasted everytime by babyblacks. 40, 50 points etc. Each time.
And each time, u see players that are physically exactly at the same level on both sides, but skills and rugby science, mamamia the difference.
Where we learn scrum for ages, they learn how to break your line in 2 passes, how to reorganize defense to make it offensive everywhere on the field, etc its a differnt world.
We lack speed even in young teams. Wich is dramatic.
Its like comparing newzealand football to french football.
If we can make a Zidane in France and not in newzealand, its not cos neozeds are retards and cant play football, its jsut that we are more professional, precise and expert about this sport.
New zealand can make rugby geniuses every year cos they know how to form kids perfectly, they know how to teach it, and what to teach.
On this level we need to accept that we are wrong for ages and that a few miracle results over the years are pityful for one the biggest nation of rugby.
The gap will get bigger and bigger cos the rules are made and evolve according to the rugby that is played in SH, cos it is more spectacular and enjoyable for fans. If we keep teachin that 1960 style rugby to kids, we gonna have bad surprises soon.
Just look the level of french 8 or 9 , i mean its france seriously. We had some of the best palyers on the planet, and we cant even be sure about one today.
We blame saint andre for not takin FTD etc. But would all others have do better, i doubt it. None did better in 6N for 4 years, we just have a bad generation of players...Coached by the worse of all i agree

- - - Updated - - -

I like the way NZ does it, but i don't think their system can be replicated in most places.

Not necessarily the same, but already closing the league would be better. We can add teams , be 16 or 18 even 20 in a closed league, as long as we have 2 pools. Less matches already and real playoffs.
Then for formation, yes we have to copy entirely the system of newzealand. See how they detect talent, how they send one to be a pillar or a flanker, what they teach and at what age etc. All of it.

 

[ABs2011]

I think antoher thing that advantages NZ greatly is we are first and foremost a rugby playing nation. I'm not sure about France - is football the go to sport? But what it means is that 95% of the athletic talent (I made that number up but it serves to illustrate the point), goes to rugby and tends to stay there. We dont lose our best athletes to other sports. ALso, it means that as kids most of us grow up playing some form of rugby (league, union, touch, even bull-rush), in the play ground. So all the kids are developing skills right from the beginning. This is something that cannot be replicated IF rugby is not the number one sport! It is simply an advantage that NZ will always be likely to have!