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[2015 RWC] Semi Final 2: Australia vs. Argentina (25/10/2015)
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Perhaps we shouldn't mock the afflicted!
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Just got back from the stadium and i'm still fuming. Still, congrats to Australia. What ****** me off is not that we played bad, but that we played dumb.
Cordero's game was pitiful.
Cordero's game was pitiful.
Im not sure if it never looked like they were not going to lose.
Argentina didnt play well (losing Imhoff, Creevy and Hernandez left us with no chances), but with 10 minutes to go Australia was only winning by 7 and the Pumas had posession and were attacking.
Granted, Argentina was not attacking well and Australia's defense was tremendous.
The 3rd place game is always senseless and I agree that game shouldnt exist in any tournament.
But for the Pumas and for all of us in Argentina is an important game.
We are not used to being in the main stage and a 3rd place in a RWC for us is a very big deal.
Although I understand that the game is senseless for the boks, would you say they will not want to lose it and play at 100% capacity?
I dont think we have a chance having 3 of our most importante players out, but I'd like to know how the springboks are going to face this game.
Mhumhain
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There's no shame in losing to the Ozzies, however the decisions Argentina made in the first 10 minutes of the game were rugby suicide ! the Simmonds try is as close to an O.G. you'll get in rugby the 2nd Oz try came from an Insane quick tap. then you were playing come back rugby all day
ye butchered 2 certain try opportunities. But ye got to a semi final is an achievement in itself, given that its uncharted waters for my own country. I hope your new super rugby team does well and that ye go from strength to strength in Rugby Championship.
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I dont blame them for the first 10 minutes. I was flabbergasted when i saw them trying a plan, realizing beyond doubt that australia could easily neutralize it, and keep on doing the same. That is dumb.
Cordero lost 3 balls after receiving from a kick-off in the second half. All mirror images of each other. All trying to go pass defenders on our own twenty two and all of them with the ball in one hand. He did the exact same mistake against ireland.
Australia kept kicking it to him and we kept doing the same mistake again and again.
We got lucky Aus missed quite a few kicks to the posts.
All in all a great wc for us, just gutted about how we lost.
Cordero lost 3 balls after receiving from a kick-off in the second half. All mirror images of each other. All trying to go pass defenders on our own twenty two and all of them with the ball in one hand. He did the exact same mistake against ireland.
Australia kept kicking it to him and we kept doing the same mistake again and again.
We got lucky Aus missed quite a few kicks to the posts.
All in all a great wc for us, just gutted about how we lost.
as a kiwi waching this game I'm mostly glad Wayne Barnes is not going to ref the final.
I think he let both teams get away with murder at the breakdown, more so Australia but a couple of the worse calls benefited Argentina. One where an Argentinian player won a penalty with his feet almost the whole length of his body away from the ball. He was in almost like a push-up position. That is complete and utter BS.
IMO for a player to win a turnover they should need to have been completely clear of the tackle and be directly over the ball with their weight on their feet. They should be penalized for hands & elbows on the ground or putting their weight on the tackled player. Barnes just seemed to allow anything.
Pocock made a lot of turnovers by either being off his feat or being a tackle assist and never releasing the player. when that happens its almost better being the team without the ball. get some territory give the opposition the ball and then win an easy breakdown penalty.
I really liked Argentinians back play in this game but they generally really lacked offloads and support play. so often a player would find a gap or overlap and they would dummy/step and go themselves and eventually be tackled with the ball rather than look for support, draw and pass or offload.
I think that was the reason why they couldn't finish any of the many opportunities they created.
Aussies scramble really well on defense, you can't expect to make a line break pass once or twise and run in a try. you need a linebreak and at least a couple of offloads to get past their lines of defense and cover.
I think he let both teams get away with murder at the breakdown, more so Australia but a couple of the worse calls benefited Argentina. One where an Argentinian player won a penalty with his feet almost the whole length of his body away from the ball. He was in almost like a push-up position. That is complete and utter BS.
IMO for a player to win a turnover they should need to have been completely clear of the tackle and be directly over the ball with their weight on their feet. They should be penalized for hands & elbows on the ground or putting their weight on the tackled player. Barnes just seemed to allow anything.
Pocock made a lot of turnovers by either being off his feat or being a tackle assist and never releasing the player. when that happens its almost better being the team without the ball. get some territory give the opposition the ball and then win an easy breakdown penalty.
I really liked Argentinians back play in this game but they generally really lacked offloads and support play. so often a player would find a gap or overlap and they would dummy/step and go themselves and eventually be tackled with the ball rather than look for support, draw and pass or offload.
I think that was the reason why they couldn't finish any of the many opportunities they created.
Aussies scramble really well on defense, you can't expect to make a line break pass once or twise and run in a try. you need a linebreak and at least a couple of offloads to get past their lines of defense and cover.
I agree with mostly everything you said, specially the passing and offloading part.
The only one that tried that was Hernandez at the end of the first half after a break from Cordero.
The pass was not very good and Tuculet dropped it (the ref then called a knock on that only he saw).
Its in little things like this that we always end up coming short.
I cant imagine drew mitchell or ashley cooper dropping that pass and not scoring the try, even when the pass wasnt a good one.
I think barnes was terrible but he had no effect on the end result.
The better team won.
Period.
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So what are the keys to this match?
Scrum: About evens. Wallabies scrum was dominant against England and Wales, but Scotland (whether legally or not) and Argentina definitely had a lot of joy agains the Wallaby scrum. ABs scrum has been solid on their own ball, without really dominating the oppositions' scrums; probably as they've opted for a more mobile front row and lack a scrummaging tighthead lock since Brad Thorn retired. Moody or Crockett for the ABs at loose-head? Moody got outmuscled by Malherbe, but then he was giving away 6kgs to the SA tight head.
For the Wallabies I think Sio showed he is the better scrummager compared to Slipper and him being fit could give Australia the edge come scrum time.
The Breakdown: I thought SA edged this battle on Saturday with Burger and Louw really edging their battle with Kaino and McCaw; certainly in the first half. Pocock is the turnover king this tournament and is the difference between the Wallabies being very good team to great team. Relishing the battle between McCaw and him. Wallabies just edge this.
I think allied to the breakdown are turnovers. ABs are the best at scoring tries from turnovers, whether it was Carter ripping the ball from Burger, which led to the second try. For me ABs just edge this.
The Line-out: ABs have the advantage here with 4 line out targets compared to Wallabies 3. ABs won this battle against SA, even when Matfield was brought on to take charge.
Re-starts: Carter's kicking at the re-starts in the last two games have been spot on. I give the ABs the edge here.
Mauls: Again 50:50. I did notice that Read got penalised in the SA game, when Garces penalised him for coming in from the side a couple of times. Hansen is supposed to want to talk to ref's boss of World rugby to get clarification of this, as he thought Read was part of the maul and so should not have been penalised for coming in from the side. Pocock has scored countless tries in super rugby from the back of mauls. i thought, however, overall NZ defended the the Springbok Mauls really well on Saturday and this may give them the practise needed against the Wallabies.
The kicking game: Expecting light rain on Saturday. For all ABs silky skills and offloads, they are a team not afraid to go to the kicking game. Ben Smith was superb in the air on Saturday the Boks. I'm not sure if Folau is fully fit, and I expect the ABs to test this with some high balls to him; to test that ankle. i thought Milner Shudder was vulnerable in the air and the Springboks did target him in this aspect, where Habana won one particular 50:50 ball against NMS. Expect the Wallabies to have noticed this and Drew Mitchell to do the same.
Discipline: Offsides at the ruck and also foul play. Was surprised how many penalties the ABs gave away on Saturday. Needless to say, this is what kept the Boks in the match, as they did not look like scoring a try, apart from the Pieterson interception, which was called back for a penalty. Stupid penalties like Neck rolls, when clearing out the ruck, will need to be avoided, as we saw with Moody and Matfield (the latter costing SA a kickable penalty).
The Drop goal:
Kiwis seem to be ashamed of this for some reason. But hell, Carter's drop goal on Saturday ultimately won them the game; had he not chosen to slot that one ABs would have lost
18-17. One or two Kiwi fans on here a few months ago said Carter was crap at them and could not do them properly. I'm a big fan of tennis as well, and remember Federer refusing to do the drop shot because he didn't think it was a proper shot, until he kept losing to Nadal. He then adopted it and it helped him win the French Open in 2009. Moral is, the drop goal is just another string to the bow to change things up and keep that scoreboard ticking over.
Have yet to see Foley drop goal yet, but surely something he would have been practising in training.
The bench: When do each side bring their bench on for tiring bodies? In terms of strength, I think NZ do edge this. It's clear NMS is likely to come off in the second half and Barrett comes on at full back and Ben Smith shifts to right wing. This gives ABs a second kicking option and playmaker in Barrett, as well as Carter. SBW can also come on for either Conrad Smith, with Nonu shifting to outside centre or a straight swap for Nonu.
I wonder if ABs feel they are losing the breakdown battle, whether they bring on Vito or Cane to help out McCaw.
Mealamu offer massive experience at hooker and Crockett and Faumauina's ball carrying will be massive against tiring Wallabies.
For the Wallabies I was impressed with Polota-Nau's impact in the ball carrying stakes for the Wallabies against the Pumas, but his line out throwing is a bit erratic. Can't comment too much on the Wallabies prop cover, as not watched Holmes/Toby Smith closely and Slipper has not been on form for the Wallabies for a while in the scrum or the loose.
Mumm should cover lock and 6, whilst McCalman covers 8. McCalman's defence when he came on against Wales was impressive, but again not too sure either will have the impact off of the bench that Vito and Cane can have. I think Wallabies may rue not picking White over Phipps, who I have not been overly impressed with. White scored a long range penalty agains the ABs in Sydney earlier this year, and his try sealed the game. Toomua and Beale are likely to cover the 22 and 23 shirts; Beale was excellent when he came on v England on the wing, but not too impressive when he came on against the Pumas at 12; I don't rate him as an international inside centre.
Experience: The ABs have this over the Wallabies; I think ABs starting 15 v SA was in the high 900s, whilst Wallabies 15 v Pumas was in the 700s. Experience of a RWC final definitely favours the ABs, with at least 10 of the 23 having played in the last final. Only Matt Giteau has experience of a RWC final, back in 2003 and he was a sub on that day and even then only came on temporally to replace Stephen Larkham as a blood replacement.
The referee Mr Nigel Owens and how he refs the breakdown, scrums will be crucial. With Garces and Barnes helping him out. Some say he favours the ABs and I'm sure someone on here will dig out the stats comparing the matches he reffed the ABs and they won compared to when he refereed the Wallabies.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.
Scrum: About evens. Wallabies scrum was dominant against England and Wales, but Scotland (whether legally or not) and Argentina definitely had a lot of joy agains the Wallaby scrum. ABs scrum has been solid on their own ball, without really dominating the oppositions' scrums; probably as they've opted for a more mobile front row and lack a scrummaging tighthead lock since Brad Thorn retired. Moody or Crockett for the ABs at loose-head? Moody got outmuscled by Malherbe, but then he was giving away 6kgs to the SA tight head.
For the Wallabies I think Sio showed he is the better scrummager compared to Slipper and him being fit could give Australia the edge come scrum time.
The Breakdown: I thought SA edged this battle on Saturday with Burger and Louw really edging their battle with Kaino and McCaw; certainly in the first half. Pocock is the turnover king this tournament and is the difference between the Wallabies being very good team to great team. Relishing the battle between McCaw and him. Wallabies just edge this.
I think allied to the breakdown are turnovers. ABs are the best at scoring tries from turnovers, whether it was Carter ripping the ball from Burger, which led to the second try. For me ABs just edge this.
The Line-out: ABs have the advantage here with 4 line out targets compared to Wallabies 3. ABs won this battle against SA, even when Matfield was brought on to take charge.
Re-starts: Carter's kicking at the re-starts in the last two games have been spot on. I give the ABs the edge here.
Mauls: Again 50:50. I did notice that Read got penalised in the SA game, when Garces penalised him for coming in from the side a couple of times. Hansen is supposed to want to talk to ref's boss of World rugby to get clarification of this, as he thought Read was part of the maul and so should not have been penalised for coming in from the side. Pocock has scored countless tries in super rugby from the back of mauls. i thought, however, overall NZ defended the the Springbok Mauls really well on Saturday and this may give them the practise needed against the Wallabies.
The kicking game: Expecting light rain on Saturday. For all ABs silky skills and offloads, they are a team not afraid to go to the kicking game. Ben Smith was superb in the air on Saturday the Boks. I'm not sure if Folau is fully fit, and I expect the ABs to test this with some high balls to him; to test that ankle. i thought Milner Shudder was vulnerable in the air and the Springboks did target him in this aspect, where Habana won one particular 50:50 ball against NMS. Expect the Wallabies to have noticed this and Drew Mitchell to do the same.
Discipline: Offsides at the ruck and also foul play. Was surprised how many penalties the ABs gave away on Saturday. Needless to say, this is what kept the Boks in the match, as they did not look like scoring a try, apart from the Pieterson interception, which was called back for a penalty. Stupid penalties like Neck rolls, when clearing out the ruck, will need to be avoided, as we saw with Moody and Matfield (the latter costing SA a kickable penalty).
The Drop goal:
Kiwis seem to be ashamed of this for some reason. But hell, Carter's drop goal on Saturday ultimately won them the game; had he not chosen to slot that one ABs would have lost
18-17. One or two Kiwi fans on here a few months ago said Carter was crap at them and could not do them properly. I'm a big fan of tennis as well, and remember Federer refusing to do the drop shot because he didn't think it was a proper shot, until he kept losing to Nadal. He then adopted it and it helped him win the French Open in 2009. Moral is, the drop goal is just another string to the bow to change things up and keep that scoreboard ticking over.
Have yet to see Foley drop goal yet, but surely something he would have been practising in training.
The bench: When do each side bring their bench on for tiring bodies? In terms of strength, I think NZ do edge this. It's clear NMS is likely to come off in the second half and Barrett comes on at full back and Ben Smith shifts to right wing. This gives ABs a second kicking option and playmaker in Barrett, as well as Carter. SBW can also come on for either Conrad Smith, with Nonu shifting to outside centre or a straight swap for Nonu.
I wonder if ABs feel they are losing the breakdown battle, whether they bring on Vito or Cane to help out McCaw.
Mealamu offer massive experience at hooker and Crockett and Faumauina's ball carrying will be massive against tiring Wallabies.
For the Wallabies I was impressed with Polota-Nau's impact in the ball carrying stakes for the Wallabies against the Pumas, but his line out throwing is a bit erratic. Can't comment too much on the Wallabies prop cover, as not watched Holmes/Toby Smith closely and Slipper has not been on form for the Wallabies for a while in the scrum or the loose.
Mumm should cover lock and 6, whilst McCalman covers 8. McCalman's defence when he came on against Wales was impressive, but again not too sure either will have the impact off of the bench that Vito and Cane can have. I think Wallabies may rue not picking White over Phipps, who I have not been overly impressed with. White scored a long range penalty agains the ABs in Sydney earlier this year, and his try sealed the game. Toomua and Beale are likely to cover the 22 and 23 shirts; Beale was excellent when he came on v England on the wing, but not too impressive when he came on against the Pumas at 12; I don't rate him as an international inside centre.
Experience: The ABs have this over the Wallabies; I think ABs starting 15 v SA was in the high 900s, whilst Wallabies 15 v Pumas was in the 700s. Experience of a RWC final definitely favours the ABs, with at least 10 of the 23 having played in the last final. Only Matt Giteau has experience of a RWC final, back in 2003 and he was a sub on that day and even then only came on temporally to replace Stephen Larkham as a blood replacement.
The referee Mr Nigel Owens and how he refs the breakdown, scrums will be crucial. With Garces and Barnes helping him out. Some say he favours the ABs and I'm sure someone on here will dig out the stats comparing the matches he reffed the ABs and they won compared to when he refereed the Wallabies.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.
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