[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

what about if Quins somehow reach the final we will be missing, Marler, Sinckler, Robshaw, Care and Brown.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Thankfully that is very unlikely to happen.

 

[Patchey]

That would probab;y be the only time in my life I would be sad about Quins doing well.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

There are 2 or 3 players that need to be tried out now- Sinckler, Daly, Rokoduguni to see if they suit the set -up we have and if they are good enough for intl' level rugby. I want us to put out a very strong team and try and beat New Zealand. With the final and who we need you see what each team brings to us.
Saracens- M.Vunipola, B.Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt, Ashton
Tigers- Tuilagi, B.Youngs, T.Youngs, Slater, Parling, Cole, Croft ?
Northampton- Hartley, Corbisiero, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Burrell, Foden
Bath- Webber, Wilson, Attwood, Fearns ?, Ford, Eastmond, Joseph, Rokoduguni, Watson
Best case would be Sarries v Tigers and Worse case Bath v Saints. Our team with a Bath vs Saints Final
1.Marler
2.Ward
3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury
5.Slater
6.Robshaw
7.Kvesic/Haskell
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.May
15.Brown
16.George/Taylor 17.Mullan 18.Cooper-Woolley 19.Stooke/Kruis/Kitchener 20.Haskell/Kvesic 21.Youngs 22.Cipriani 23.Daly

what about Nowell at 14 i didn't think he had a bad six nations and in my opinion better than may

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yeah quins are definitely the side we can least afford to have in the final.
Followed closely by Bath actually. Crammed full of guys on the cusp of being first choice. Garvey has to tour, he's been an absolute monster for Bath, especially against Wasps on sunday.

Personally I'd like to see Sarries vs Saints in the final.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

wait never mind about my last post on this thread just realised he's injured

 

[j'nuh]

Thankfully that is very unlikely to happen.

Not sure about that.

Bath are on 64 points and play Saints (H) and Quins (A).
Quins are on 58 points and play Exeter (A) and Bath (H).

Exeter have been very poor in recent weeks. Home drubbing from Sale, narrow win against Wuss, home loss against Glos, another drubbing from Tigers. Presumably, Quins will win this game, even though it's held at Sandy.
Whereas Bath have a difficult fixture in Saints, even if Bath are at home.
If Quins beat the Chiefs (likely imo) and Saints beat Bath (maybe 50:50?) then it will all come down to the final game of the season, and Quins are at home.

If Quins were to win both and Bath lose both, then Bath would get presumably at most 2 points from LBP, whereas Quins would get 8. Both would end up on 66 points, and Quins would advance as having won more games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Saints vs Bath will be interesting.
Saints don't look particularly great atm, whereas Bath are on good form, but it's not unlike Bath to not bring their 'A' game against the bigger sides.
A loss vs Saints (with Quins beating Exeter) makes the final round very exciting as a winner takes all.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's all very good getting to the play-offs... how likely is it that they'll reach the final?

 

[j'nuh]

It's all very good getting to the play-offs... how likely is it that they'll reach the final?

Fair point. We have to assume that if Quins do make it into the top 4, then they'll finish 4th and take on Sarries at their place. I'm ill and slow, take pity

I find it interesting that Sarries are quite easily the best English side atm, and yet so few of their players are seen as must-haves for England. Do we underrate some of their players?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Good coaching.

Good team =/= good players.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Fair point. We have to assume that if Quins do make it into the top 4, then they'll finish 4th and take on Sarries at their place. I'm ill and slow, take pity

I find it interesting that Sarries are quite easily the best English side atm, and yet so few of their players are seen as must-haves for England. Do we underrate some of their players?

Not really, our players play in a system where as long as you are defensively good anyone can fit in. Our best players are Brits, Hargreaves, Burger, Vunipola, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Goode our English players aren't the best players England have available to them and our other stars are foreign. The reason we do so well is the team has stayed the same for about 4 years and we are excellently coached, we are an amazing collective unit even though not every player is an intl' superstar a la Toulon. Also are Brits and Burger the best foreign imports in the Aviva's history ?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

. Also are Brits and Burger the best foreign imports in the Aviva's history ?

Aviva history or Premiership history?

 

[j'nuh]

But I'd suggest that barnstorming the Premiership (just 2 losses!) and reaching the European final would suggest that Sarries are more than just a well-coached outfit.

Admittedly, a number of their best players cannot play for England e.g. Burger, Brits, Bosch, Hargreaves, Wyles.

It just makes me wonder whether I underestimate some of the English players such as Stevens, Borthwick, Botha, Wigglesworth, Ashton, Barritt etc. If these players are good enough to start for a team doing as well as the Sarries, then maybe I've been too harsh on them?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Aviva history or Premiership history?

Premiership history

It just makes me wonder whether I underestimate some of the English players such as Stevens, Borthwick, Botha, Wigglesworth, Ashton, Barritt etc. If these players are good enough to start for a team doing as well as the Sarries, then maybe I've been too harsh on them?

Stevens- nah he doesn't even start for us and is only useful off the bench. Borthwick is a good lineout operator but he isn't/wasn't as good as a lot of second rows around. Botha- same really, quite physical but not intl' quality. Wigglesworth is a really good scrum-half and gives us something that our other scrum-halfs don't which is quick service to the fly-half and he has the best kicking game. Barritt- I really like him and I think he was very underrated when playing for England. He done brilliantly playing with Hodgson and Farrell and being the solid defensive rock in our midfield, probably wont get another England chance which is unfair considering he may not have many outstanding games but never a bad one, Mr Reliable. Ashton- Everyone can probably tell i'm a fan so no need for a paragraph. Goode- Not what england need from a full-back Looked good for England in the second receiver role but Eastmond/36 made him redundant.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Premiership history
.

No then imo.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Surely a Gloucester fan should be well aware of the effect good/bad coaching and management can have.
You have players who are clearly better than the performances their team has been putting out.

Look at the difference Schmidt has made to Ireland.

Saying it's just down to coaching oversimplifies things a little.
Sarries have evolved over the last 5 years both in terms of players and style - there haven't been any particularly big changes in that regard since their big clearout.
The club's stance on team building and generally treating players as well as they possibly can allied with their rotation policy and squad depth means that they can achieve an unrivaled level on consistency.
Consistency over a long period of time allied with good players (some average some superb) is a very good way to achieve strong performances.

Conversely - look at Racing Metro.

 

[Toby Sweeney]

Not really, our players play in a system where as long as you are defensively good anyone can fit in. Our best players are Brits, Hargreaves, Burger, Vunipola, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Goode our English players aren't the best players England have available to them and our other stars are foreign. The reason we do so well is the team has stayed the same for about 4 years and we are excellently coached, we are an amazing collective unit even though not every player is an intl' superstar a la Toulon. Also are Brits and Burger the best foreign imports in the Aviva's history ?

Not sure I agree all are players have been there 4 years, as a team we are continuously improving and our full strength team looks very different then it did 4 years ago. On the England issue I agree, players like Bosch, Brits and burger make us a strong team not necessarily the English players. Although I still feel Barritt should be given another England chance, never did anything wrong for England and defensively is a rock, I mean he neutralised Fofana on Saturday to the point I was asking why the commentators hadn't mentioned why Fofana wasn't playing!!

 

[McTallshort]

Not really, our players play in a system where as long as you are defensively good anyone can fit in. Our best players are Brits, Hargreaves, Burger, Vunipola, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Goode our English players aren't the best players England have available to them and our other stars are foreign. The reason we do so well is the team has stayed the same for about 4 years and we are excellently coached, we are an amazing collective unit even though not every player is an intl' superstar a la Toulon. Also are Brits and Burger the best foreign imports in the Aviva's history ?

In fairness thats kind of where England are, they have a fantastic defense with a pack that plays very much as one and I can see the similarities between the 2 other than I enjoy it when England win....

 

[Patchey]

Just going to leave this link here, really worth a watch.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27212783